A simple---but serious---question

[Athetotheist]

There are numerous god-men who died and rose from death in stories predating the time of Jesus. Considering the notable differences between the gospel accounts, and particularly the differences between the accounts of Jesus's supposed resurrection, here's a question for gospel apologists to think seriously about:

There are four resurrection accounts about Jesus in the Christian gospels. If the exact same accounts, with the exact same differences, were written about Osiris, Tammuz, Attis or any such god-man other than Jesus, would Christian apologists find all of those accounts believable?

And if they wouldn't find all of them believable, would they find any of them believable?

[Athetotheist]

If he could keep the original texts free of error, shouldn't he have kept the copies free of it as well?

No I don't think he should have. As long as the message is not corrupted, minor copyist errors are in my opinion of not consequence.



JW

If there are even "minor" copyist errors, isn't the message of Psalm 138:2 corrupted?

[Athetotheist]

Can the issue of staves between Mark 6 and Luke 9 be readily explained?

Yes, Jesus meant "don't take" as in don't take an extra staff (stave). It's the difference between a holiday goer being told , "Don't wear a coat" and "Don't take a coat". If you don't take a coat you are not carrying anything as a provision in case of need. If you say dont wear a coat you are saying not to use what they presently need.

A staff was a common possession in Jesus day, so Jesus was saying their present possessions woulld be enough and not to make any attempt to acquire more for their journey.

If Jesus is telling them not to take two staves, why doesn't he say that when he does tell them not to take two tunics [Luke 9:3]?

[JehovahsWitness]

If Jesus is telling them not to take two staves, why doesn't he say that when he does tell them not to take two tunics [Luke 9:3]?

Because often we express the same thing in different ways. For example one might say "you look great ....I love your hat" and go on to say "... and I just adore your shoes they really suit you". Of course there was always the option of saying "I love your shoes too" but people rarely respond to two non-identical compliments "If "I love your hat" meant "I love your hat" why did you tell me you adore my shoes?"

[JehovahsWitness]

COPYIST ERRORS

If there are even "minor" copyist errors, isn't the message of Psalm 138:2 corrupted?

No, I don't believe so. Often copyist errors concern details which are not central to the bibles message, themes or even the particular narrative. In other words, whichever option is correct, nothing would change in the outcome or the overall theme.






RELATED POSTS

Has the overal integrity of the bible been corrupted by copies errors?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 65#p985365

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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 08#p766608

What are copyist errors ?
viewtopic.php?p=1058539#p1058539

Does Jeremiah 8:8 imply that the scribes in Jeremiah's day had corrupted the scriptures ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 09#p779409

Would God's use of human "secretaries" to write the bible not have corrupted it from its start?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 83#p833783

If bible translations are not inspired, how can they be trusted?
viewtopic.php?p=986376#p986376

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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 13#p986513

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viewtopic.php?p=1097626#p1097626

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

BIBLICAL INERRANCY , COPYIST ERRORS and CORRUPTION OF SCRIPTURE

[JehovahsWitness]

11And a voice came from heaven, saying, “You are My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.” —Mark 1:11 [voice is speaking to Jesus]

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. —Matthew 3:17 [voice is speaking to others][/indent]

Is there any reason the voice couldn't have said both?

[Tcg]

11And a voice came from heaven, saying, “You are My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.” —Mark 1:11 [voice is speaking to Jesus]

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. —Matthew 3:17 [voice is speaking to others][/indent]

Is there any reason the voice couldn't have said both?

Sure. That would be extremely likely if the great almighty stutters full sentences.




Tcg

[TRANSPONDER]

11And a voice came from heaven, saying, “You are My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.” —Mark 1:11 [voice is speaking to Jesus]

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. —Matthew 3:17 [voice is speaking to others][/indent]

Is there any reason the voice couldn't have said both?

Yes. Reason.

Mark says that Jesus saw the spirit descending and it spoke to him 'You' or 'Thou'. Matthew also says he saw it but the voice addresses the people telling them about Jesus 'This is..' As is often the case we turn to Luke as the swaying vote. He says 'You are my beloved son'.

Nobody says that both were spoken. 'weaving together' doesn't work (and it rarely does). So we have to ite mishearing or misremembering or Matthew changing it. And for the latter to work we have to check whether he often does this. But I don't think 'both were said' is going to wash, but Matthew saw the advantage in changing it so we didn't just have Jesus'word for it; other people heard it because God addressed them - according to Matthew.

It might be interesting to compare this with the repeat event at Bethsaida. Mark 9.7 'This is my beloved son'. Matthew Matthew 17.5 the same.Luke 9.15 'This is my son, my chosen. Listen to him'.

So, agreement there. I'd suggest that Matthew might have compared them as I just did and Overthought it (as he did with the 2 donkeys). God was telling others at the mountain, so probably he was addressing everyone at the Baptism, too', and so 'Corrected it'. But who knows? I'll just say that trying to make out that God could have said both is frankly by far the poorest excuse to hoc out of the ad.

[Miles]

Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. —2 Kings 24:8

Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem… —2 Chronicles 36:9

This was probably a scribal (copyist) error.

Possibly. Possibly not. Yet they still remain contradictions.

__________________________________________

Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death. —II Samuel 6:23

But the king took the two sons of Rizpah…and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul. —II Samuel 21:8

The first scripture is refering to Michal having not biological children.

The second to her having "adopted" sons.

And your evidence is: Book _____________ Chapter ______ Verse _____ .


__________________________________________

2 Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri. —2 Chronicles 22:2

26 Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. And his mother's name was Athaliah, the daughter of Omri king of Israel. —2KI 8:26

This can be explained by you misreading 1 CHRON 22:2 which reads 22 years not 42

Which can be explained by you misreading 1 CHRON 22:2 which reads 42 years not 22

2 Chronicles 22:2 King James Version
2 Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri.

2 Chronicles 22:2 American Standard Version
Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem: and his mother’s name was Athaliah the daughter of Omri.

2 Chronicles 22:2 God's Word Version
Ahaziah  was 42 years old when he began to rule, and he ruled for one year in Jerusalem. His mother was Athaliah, the granddaughter of Omri.

2 Chronicles 22:2 World English Bible Version
Ahaziah was forty-two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Athaliah the daughter of Omri.

2 Chronicles 22:2 Modern English Version
Now Ahaziah was forty-two years old when he began to reign, but he only reigned one year in Jerusalem. The name of his mother was Athaliah, a granddaughter of Omri.

2 Chronicles 22:2 Revised Standard Version
Ahazi′ah was forty-two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Athali′ah, the granddaughter of Omri.

__________________________________________

11And a voice came from heaven, saying, “You are My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.” —Mark 1:11 [voice is speaking to Jesus]

17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. —Matthew 3:17 [voice is speaking to others][/indent]

Is there any reason the voice couldn't have said both?

A possibility, yes. Extremely unlikely god would waste his breath this way, yes. Just as it's extremely unlikely god would have made tress before he made man AND made tree after he made man...... YET . . . .

BEFORE
GE 1:11-12, 26-27
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

VERSES

AFTER
Gen 2:7-9
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

8 And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Oops! Another contradiction. And, YES, just as everyone takes these Genesis verses as chronologically ordered, so do I.


.

[JehovahsWitness]

Possibly.

__________________________________________



A possibility, yes

CONTRADICTION exists when there is no possible way for both things to be true. If you concede that these are "possible" explanations then you are admitting they are not contradictions.

[JehovahsWitness]

Which can be explained by you misreading 1 CHRON 22:2 which reads 42 years not 22

2 Chronicles 22:2 King James Version
2 Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name also was Athaliah the daughter of Omri.

2 Chronicles 22:2 American Standard Version
Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign; and he reigned one year in Jerusalem: and his mother’s name was Athaliah the daughter of Omri.

2 Chronicles 22:2 God's Word Version
Ahaziah  was 42 years old when he began to rule, and he ruled for one year in Jerusalem. His mother was Athaliah, the granddaughter of Omri.

2 Chronicles 22:2 World English Bible Version
Ahaziah was forty-two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Athaliah the daughter of Omri.

2 Chronicles 22:2 Modern English Version
Now Ahaziah was forty-two years old when he began to reign, but he only reigned one year in Jerusalem. The name of his mother was Athaliah, a granddaughter of Omri.

2 Chronicles 22:2 Revised Standard Version
Ahazi′ah was forty-two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother’s name was Athali′ah, the granddaughter of Omri.

Are there any translations of the above passage which read "22 years old"? And if so what can we reasonably conclude as to the origin of the alternative reading?

Various translations
https://biblehub.com/2_chronicles/22-2.htm