Making sense of the NT

[Sherlock Holmes]

Hello,

I've been debating (online) against atheism for many years, I'm very well educated in the sciences and to a lesser degree, philosophy.

However - and I know I'm not alone here - Christianity itself, the New Testament, remarkable and thought provoking as it is, and not questioning the legitimacy of the texts we have access to, I am ultimately deeply puzzled by it all.

Christ revealed some deeply profound things, completely dumbfounding prevailing Jewish beliefs and this goes in its favor, as it's sheer radicality is just not something I'd expect to simply emerge from prevailing ideas.

Yet it makes no sense at the end of the day, for example why go to all this trouble? the entire human race is in a state of anguish, confusion and beginning to collapse, why is that logically necessary as part of creation?

What exactly are humans expected to do? it is far from clear (as is evidenced by the many doctrinal arguments over the past twenty centuries).

So that's my position, I'm interested in hearing some candidate answers!

[Sherlock Holmes]

Since the enemy of God influenced the first couple created to disobey and separate from their heavenly Father, God revealed that he would put an end to this state of separation of humanity from his family:

Gen. 3:14 Then Jehovah God said to the serpent: "Because you have done this, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild animals of the field. On your belly you will go, and you will eat dust all the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel."

How can God have an enemy? how can God create an enemy? why would God create something that then prevents him from doing what he set out to do?

If God created his own enemy then God is his own enemy, this is what I mean about stuff not making sense.

[Eloi]

Since the enemy of God influenced the first couple created to disobey and separate from their heavenly Father, God revealed that he would put an end to this state of separation of humanity from his family:

Gen. 3:14 Then Jehovah God said to the serpent: "Because you have done this, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild animals of the field. On your belly you will go, and you will eat dust all the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel."

How can God have an enemy? how can God create an enemy? why would God create something that then prevents him from doing what he set out to do?

If God created his own enemy then God is his own enemy, this is what I mean about stuff not making sense.

Exactly as I said: If you don't want to let God decide what you do with the life he gave you, you become independent. If you accuse him of being unjust and a liar, you make yourself his enemy.

[Sherlock Holmes]

The world is filled with misery, pain, anguish and suffering, this is what has been created.

Children are abused and tortured the world over, people become sick and suffer misery and pain the world over, this is what I see, this is what has been created, but why?

No, it is not what has been created ... that was what humans achieved by separating from their Father.

But the Creator had a very different purpose when he created the planet and humans. Despite all the human misery of these times, the great and satisfying things that the Creator gave us are still clearly visible, because his goodness still reaches us.

This makes no sense, God's will cannot be resisted (it is written) yet you claim "the Creator had a very different purpose" so the purpose God set has been undermined by the very things he created.

How can God create something and then attribute the state of the system to anything other than himself?

The intelligent beings that God created are free to decide whether to obey him or not ... exactly like you and me right now.

But how can one decide anything? all decisions are based on data, information, therefore the data available will influence the decision, if you lie to a child it will do the wrong thing.

Besides what does "obey him" mean? vast numbers of professing Christians claim to do exactly that yet they all do different things!

[Eloi]

(...) But how can one decide anything? all decisions are based on data, information, therefore the data available will influence the decision, if you lie to a child it will do the wrong thing.

That is not true. Many aspects other than reason influence decisions, such as feelings or emotions.

Besides what does "obey him" mean? vast numbers of professing Christians claim to do exactly that yet they all do different things!

I already answered that before.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Since the enemy of God influenced the first couple created to disobey and separate from their heavenly Father, God revealed that he would put an end to this state of separation of humanity from his family:

Gen. 3:14 Then Jehovah God said to the serpent: "Because you have done this, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild animals of the field. On your belly you will go, and you will eat dust all the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel."

How can God have an enemy? how can God create an enemy? why would God create something that then prevents him from doing what he set out to do?

If God created his own enemy then God is his own enemy, this is what I mean about stuff not making sense.

Exactly as I said: If you don't want to let God decide what you do with the life he gave you, you become independent. If you accuse him of being unjust and a liar, you make yourself his enemy.

Well there are hundreds of cases of people who killed and tortured yet claimed they were doing what God willed them to do.

I also did not accuse anyone - not God or anyone - of being "unjust" or lying.

[Sherlock Holmes]

The world is filled with misery, pain, anguish and suffering, this is what has been created.

Children are abused and tortured the world over, people become sick and suffer misery and pain the world over, this is what I see, this is what has been created, but why?

No, it is not what has been created ... that was what humans achieved by separating from their Father.

But the Creator had a very different purpose when he created the planet and humans. Despite all the human misery of these times, the great and satisfying things that the Creator gave us are still clearly visible, because his goodness still reaches us.

This makes no sense, God's will cannot be resisted (it is written) yet you claim "the Creator had a very different purpose" so the purpose God set has been undermined by the very things he created.

How can God create something and then attribute the state of the system to anything other than himself?

The intelligent beings that God created are free to decide whether to obey him or not ... exactly like you and me right now.

But how can one decide anything? all decisions are based on data, information, therefore the data available will influence the decision, if you lie to a child it will do the wrong thing.

Besides what does "obey him" mean? vast numbers of professing Christians claim to do exactly that yet they all do different things!

That is not true. Many aspects other than reason influence decisions, such as feelings or emotions.

Yes that's true, but most people in Muslim countries are Muslims for example because of the information they have been immersed in since birth.

[Eloi]

(...) Well there are hundreds of cases of people who killed and tortured yet claimed they were doing what God willed them to do.

I also did not accuse anyone - not God or anyone - of being "unjust" or lying.

The human attitude says nothing about God and his purpose when he created us. If a person uses a knife to kill, is it the blacksmith's fault?

[benchwarmer]

I disagree, to regard the NT as a product of human invention makes the matter even more bewildering.

Yet human invention is the most probable cause. How does one explain all the other 'holy scriptures' from other gods? Are they not inventions either? If all of them are, then what is the probability the Christian ones are as well? It's not like Christianity was first on the scene and everyone else copied them. In fact, it's pretty much the opposite. There is much in Christianity that has been copied from other pre-existing religions.

It's not bewildering at all as to why the NT exists. Humans wrote some stuff down to codify their beliefs. If one looks closely enough, one can find copying internally as well. See the Synoptic Problem (google is your friend if not familiar).

First the NT shows little change from the very earliest scraps of manuscript to the more recent ones, the consistency is beyond comparison with anything else from antiquity, I just would not expect that if it were just a human invention with ideological or political motives behind it.

And the earliest scraps that we have are how old? What's the time difference between those and the events they portray? How does Christians faithfully copying a text over and over relate to the validity of what is being copied? If this is a determining factor in truth, surely other religions should be considered valid as well? Or any text for that matter.

The prevalence of the NT is also beyond compare, there is more documentary basis to Christ existing and rising from the dead than there is about Spartacus for example.

What does prevalence have to do with anything?

This is pure argumentum ad populum.

In fact, there is scant documentary evidence that Christ exists. Pick up a Bible. There, you are holding almost all of it (in fact, probably all of it as the few other scant mentions are likely just retelling what Christians were saying).

But it is what is written that is bewildering, it doesn't try to "make sense" it describes people being confused even at the time, the message itself describes itself as being confusing, I'd expect human originated theology or doctrine to go to much greater pains to be understandable to the reader, but the NT does not nor have attempts been made to do so in the centuries following Christ, it has been left as is, faithfully copied with great care despite what must - for some - have been strong temptations to alter the text.

No need to look beyond the Bible for people trying to update and/or alter previous text. The gospels themselves are very likely just that. Each building on the previous works, trying to put their own spin on the theology as they see it (again see Synoptic Problem). The theory that I personally believe is the most likely as it all started with Paul and then the subsequent gospels each put a new spin on the same story. It makes perfect sense. The author of Luke even admits it (bolding mine):

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearc ... ersion=NIV

Luke 1
Introduction
Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,

[Sherlock Holmes]

(...) What exactly are humans expected to do? it is far from clear (as is evidenced by the many doctrinal arguments over the past twenty centuries).

So that's my position, I'm interested in hearing some candidate answers!

In general terms, a servant of God has to take care of these two aspects:

1) beliefs
2) principles and values.

When the Bible is studied carefully and with help, both aspects (in all their points) become more and more clear. For example, when we read this:

1 Cor. 6:9 What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit Gods kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit Gods kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.

... or this:

Gal. 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, and they are sexual immorality, uncleanness, brazen conduct, 20 idolatry, spiritism, hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions, divisions, sects, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and things like these. I am forewarning you about these things, the same way I already warned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit Gods Kingdom.
22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed to the stake the flesh together with its passions and desires.

... principles and values become clear.

Humans are expected to be civic with each other, and to know and respect the only true God ... who left us a written letter so that we don't go blind through life. If we read it and study it, we'll know what the Creator did, what He is doing, and what He will do, and what we must do to be on His side and receive the promises. He got a people on earth at this very moment; look for it and join:

Apoc. 21:17 And the spirit and the bride keep on saying, "Come!" and let anyone hearing say, "Come!" and let anyone thirsting come; let anyone who wishes take lifes water free.

Well you've not defined what "belief" is, what does it actually mean? have you ever really thought about that?

[Sherlock Holmes]

Since the enemy of God influenced the first couple created to disobey and separate from their heavenly Father, God revealed that he would put an end to this state of separation of humanity from his family:

Gen. 3:14 Then Jehovah God said to the serpent: "Because you have done this, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild animals of the field. On your belly you will go, and you will eat dust all the days of your life. 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel."

OK so why create the serpent? if there had been no serpent then everything would have remained fine it seems.