How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Purple Knight
Prodigy
Posts: 3935
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2020 6:00 pm
Has thanked: 1250 times
Been thanked: 802 times

How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.

That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.

Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.

Image

Image

This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.

Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?

I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.

User avatar
The Barbarian
Guru
Posts: 1236
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2021 8:40 pm
Has thanked: 264 times
Been thanked: 757 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #121

Post by The Barbarian »

You don't know what evolution is, and you have no idea what the existing problems in evolution might be. You're refusing to engage on that issue, because you don't know anything about it.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:54 pm I am refusing to engage with some here for the reasons I stated.
Not credible. Sorry.
There is nothing to be gained, no purpose can be served, attempting to debate with those who are not truly open minded, truly willing to alter their position, the willingness to do that is necessary, why debate with someone who can never change their position?
It's true that you can never change your position in this matter. But it is useful to highlight your behavior, which illustrates creationists generally. You're serving as a bad example. Declaring that you have falsified evolutionary theory, but refusing to show how, reflects on creationists generally.
At this point I regard some here as demonstrating no such willingness, no willingness, not agreeable to, having their position altered. I notice you have once again declined to support your beliefs. It appears that you are aware of how faulty they are and do not want to risk having them openly discussed.
So if a person has already made it clear that the are unwilling to alter their position then why waste time arguing with them?
Because you can always serve as a bad example.
So far as I'm concerned too, anyone who argues "the majority is always right" or "evolution is a fact" is an utter waste of time to debate with,
You're confused about fact and theory, now. Gravity and evolution are facts, since we observe both of them happening. There are theories of gravity and evolution, that are almost certainly wrong in various ways; each has been amended over time as new evidence suggests. No one here asserted the majority is always right, unless it was you. The opinions of a majority of scientists is most often correct, however. Likewise, if I have a medical condition, I would be most swayed by the opinion of a majority of specialists in that area. Go figure.
if their view is that truth rests upon that statistic then no amount of evidence, reasoning matters because I represent a minority view then that alone closes the matter.
I often post on boards where I argue for a minority viewpoint. I figure that if my argument is sound, and I express it well, someone will read it and be convinced to some degree. I've actually experienced that a few times. Granted, it requires that I know what I'm talking about and that I have good sources to back up my opinions. Is that the problem for you?

Maybe just go and learn about the issue so you'll have the knowledge and confidence argue openly about your beliefs.

Couldn't hurt.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #122

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Barbarian,

One of the responses, counter arguments that you posted earlier said this:
Last time I checked that was about 0.3% of PhD biologists (or a similar discipline) rejecting evolutionary theory.
Right there, the popularity of evolution is presented as a defense of it, since I'm not arguing against its popularity (I accept the percentage you stated) I can't argue against you.

You don't want to talk about the scientific problems, shortcomings at all, you want to talk about popularity and want to argue that what's popular is true, is right.

Sorry man, I just won't waste my time seriously discussing an important subject like that on these terms, instead I'm going to listen to this Jazz.

Later.

User avatar
DrNoGods
Prodigy
Posts: 2719
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:18 pm
Location: Nevada
Has thanked: 593 times
Been thanked: 1645 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #123

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #122]
Can't you see? if a person truly believes that because 99% of biologists accept evolution then evolution must be true, there's no way to ever change their mind with science so long as the doubters are in the minority, no evidence, no data, no facts, nothing matters to such a person.
It isn't just a popularity contest though among the scientific community who do study evolutionary biology. If a substantial majority of these scientists are practicing their craft properly, then any new evidence that could call into question current understanding would be looked at critically to assess what the implications are. That is their duty and obligation as scientists, and although there are bad eggs in science like any other profession the huge majority would likely see any such claims as a challenge and work to determine whether they were valid or not.

You probably remember the 1989 announcement by Fleischmann and Pons from U. Utah who announced an experiment that they claim demonstrated "cold fusion." As soon as that was announced nearly every scientist in the field jumped on it and tried to reproduce the results, and it very quickly died away when they couldn't. But the interest in it was tremendous and everyone wanted to see if it was legitimate.

If someone really had the goods to falsify evolution and announced it, you can be sure the interest level in investigating it would be far greater than the flash-in-the-pan cold fusion event and the claims would either stand on their merits or fall as many people investigated and their results were disseminated. So far no one has managed to topple evolution, although like everything in science the details are constantly being refined as new information becomes available.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
John Paul Jones, 1779

The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 15253
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 975 times
Been thanked: 1801 times
Contact:

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #124

Post by William »

I think it crazy that many Theists don't believe in the science of evolution and many non-Theists don't believe there is a mind behind the process of evolution.

That is - altogether - a fairly large number of folk who cannot simply reconcile a simple enough concept regarding the question of this universe existing to be experienced by consciousness.

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Banned
Banned
Posts: 20879
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 4093 times
Been thanked: 2573 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #125

Post by JoeyKnothead »

William wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 7:31 pm I think it crazy that many Theists don't believe in the science of evolution and many non-Theists don't believe there is a mind behind the process of evolution.
Where's it been established there's a mind behind evolution?
That is - altogether - a fairly large number of folk who cannot simply reconcile a simple enough concept regarding the question of this universe existing to be experienced by consciousness.
I think it's fair to say we're the universe become aware, but find little data to suggest it was a mind that put it here.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

User avatar
brunumb
Savant
Posts: 6047
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 6892 times
Been thanked: 3244 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #126

Post by brunumb »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:07 pm You don't want to talk about the scientific problems, shortcomings at all, you want to talk about popularity and want to argue that what's popular is true, is right.
Hang on. I do want to talk about the scientific problems and shortcomings but I don't know what they are or where to find them and you won't even present any for discussion. If I told you that I had irrefutable evidence that the resurrection of Jesus never occurred but withheld it from you and told you to go find it yourself, would you believe my claim? I very much doubt it. Well I do have such evidence but you would never accept it because I believe your mind is firmly closed on that issue. I will keep it to myself. So there.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

User avatar
brunumb
Savant
Posts: 6047
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
Location: Melbourne
Has thanked: 6892 times
Been thanked: 3244 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #127

Post by brunumb »

DrNoGods wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 6:39 pm If someone really had the goods to falsify evolution and announced it, you can be sure the interest level in investigating it would be far greater than the flash-in-the-pan cold fusion event and the claims would either stand on their merits or fall as many people investigated and their results were disseminated.
Precisely. The theory of evolution is the biggest thorn in the sides of all creationists. If it had been toppled there would be no stopping the flood of news on every media platform that exists. But what do we have? <crickets>
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 15253
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 975 times
Been thanked: 1801 times
Contact:

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #128

Post by William »

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #125]
Where's it been established there's a mind behind evolution?
In the facts Joey. Mind is involved. I think of it as a Planetary Mind.

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 15253
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 975 times
Been thanked: 1801 times
Contact:

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #129

Post by William »

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #125]
I think it's fair to say we're the universe become aware, but find little data to suggest it was a mind that put it here.
Given the young age of the human specie and the minute period of time we each have within it, 'little data' is all we have Joey.
Even so, it is enough data to make the call which only MIND can make.

It has been suggested that 'The Universe' has always existed in that it begins and ends and begins again [even as something slightly or entirely different than previously] and we are currently experiencing an infinitesimal part one such Universe cycle.

What is to say that a mind has not always being an aspect of that?

As is speculated Joey. Everything which is "The Universe" was once contained within an infinitesimal object - like the information of a mighty tree is contained within a tiny seed.

And then one big-bang moment - the seed geminated and all that it contained was released.

And here we are - minds interacting in the face of it.

I find it astounding that anyone can question the validity that it is a mindless accident...

User avatar
JoeyKnothead
Banned
Banned
Posts: 20879
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
Location: Here
Has thanked: 4093 times
Been thanked: 2573 times

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #130

Post by JoeyKnothead »

William wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 8:38 pm [Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #125]
I think it's fair to say we're the universe become aware, but find little data to suggest it was a mind that put it here.
Given the young age of the human specie and the minute period of time we each have within it, 'little data' is all we have Joey.
Even so, it is enough data to make the call which only MIND can make.
Yes, we of human minds make such kinds of calls quite often.

But that doesn't mean that reality requires our perception, which is what I was originally getting at.
William wrote: It has been suggested that 'The Universe' has always existed in that it begins and ends and begins again [even as something slightly of entirely different than previously] and we are currently experiencing an infinitesimal part one such Universe cycle.
I find the data weak for drawing firm conclusion in this matter, so...
William wrote: What is to say that a mind has not always being an aspect of that?
...I think we'd be hard pressed to draw firm conclusions in this'n.
William wrote: As is speculated Joey. Everything which is "The Universe" was once contained within an infinitesimal object - like the information of a mighty tree is contained within a tiny seed.

And then one big-bang moment - the seed geminated and all that it contained was released.

And here we are - minds interacting in the face of it.
Speculation's a poor method of determining the truth.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

Post Reply