How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Purple Knight
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How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.

That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.

Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.

Image

Image

This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.

Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?

I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.

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Jose Fly
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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #641

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:04 pm No it does not Jose, what it constitutes is "not responding" a rather different thing to "ignoring".
LOL....that's a new one! Thanks for the laugh.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #642

Post by Clownboat »

Jose Fly wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:39 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:33 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:55 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:50 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 12:23 pm
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:55 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:56 pm Its a reasonable question because one needs to establish to what degree human preparation influences the outcome.
As much as letting go of a ball influences its fall. You tell me how you want to quantity this.
Because the question had three components, "human intelligence" was only one of them.
What exactly are you referring to here? I ask because "did it require X," "is X necessary" and "could it be achieved without X" just sounded to me like three ways of asking the same question.
... In many cases the next step is for the creationist to appear in another thread, ...
Says the man who just started another thread about creationism!
Except I haven't left this discussion. :roll:
Yes you did, you once again resorted to ad-hominem and when one does that they have - IMHO - stopped debating, metaphorically left the debate and instead turned to attacking the person, look at these recent remarks:
your primary interest in it is to find excuses
hoping to find some reason to dismiss it
Such is the nature of denialism.
And now that the discussion didn't go his way, he's abandoned it.
These are all examples of ad-hominem! and because you keep repeating this I am less and less inclined to spend time responding to you.

You claim to discuss to science, to want to discuss science, yet time and again we see that you keep returning to discussing me.
???????? So you equate my characterizing your comment with leaving the thread? Er....um.....weird.

And btw, someone who flat out ignores as many papers that people post as you do probably shouldn't grouse about wanting to "discuss science". Unless you have no sense of irony that is....
It is a very powerful feeling to be able to convince oneself that they are an authority on a subject. For example: "I just happen to know that you all have been duped about the shape of the earth. I happen to know that science and Nasa are duping us and that the earth is actually flat".
Once done, it is very hard to relent as such a feeling (having convinced yourself that you are an actual authority) is very empowering.

Guess what those who do not accept the ToE are unable to do? Submit a better explanation! Apparently just complaining about accepted science is enough. Perhaps that feels empowering?

Consider what's happening here:
Person A: The best scientific explanation that we have is bad.
Person B: Do you have a better one for us to consider?
Person A: Nope, but I have a worse explanation (no explanation)!
Person B: So the best explanation we have is the best explanation available and we are all open to it being shown to be incorrect. Why are you complaining about the best we have? Might as well be complaining about how inefficient flying is while not having a better method to proffer.

Ooohhhh. This guys really knows his stuff about flight! I can tell by how hard he complains about it. :roll:
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #643

Post by Jose Fly »

Clownboat wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:30 pm It is a very powerful feeling to be able to convince oneself that they are an authority on a subject. For example: "I just happen to know that you all have been duped about the shape of the earth. I happen to know that science and Nasa are duping us and that the earth is actually flat".
Once done, it is very hard to relent as such a feeling (having convinced yourself that you are an actual authority) is very empowering.
Yup. I'm always struck by how many people who have no education or experience in evolutionary biology nevertheless anoint themselves experts in the field.
Guess what those who do not accept the ToE are unable to do? Submit a better explanation! Apparently just complaining about accepted science is enough. Perhaps that feels empowering?
It's always easier (and safer) to throw rocks from the sidelines rather than put yourself out there and actually get in the game.
Consider what's happening here:
Person A: The best scientific explanation that we have is bad.
Person B: Do you have a better one for us to consider?
Person A: Nope, but I have a worse explanation (no explanation)!
Person B: So the best explanation we have is the best explanation available and we are all open to it being shown to be incorrect. Why are you complaining about the best we have? Might as well be complaining about how inefficient flying is while not having a better method to proffer.

Ooohhhh. This guys really knows his stuff about flight! I can tell by how hard he complains about it. :roll:
And throw in the fact that most of what they say is wrong, their stereotypical denialist behaviors (e.g. ignoring info), and the constant excuse-making for why they don't have to talk to people, read things, or reply to posts, and you get.....stereotypical denialist behavior.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #644

Post by William »

[Replying to Clownboat in post #642]
Guess what those who do not accept the ToE are unable to do? Submit a better explanation!
Ad hominem aside, there is a better explanation than the universe came into existence through a mindless chaotic act.

Certainly the evidence I share hereabouts points to a mind behind it all.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #645

Post by Clownboat »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:04 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:48 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:45 pm Please stop with the insults Jose, accusing me of "ignoring" because you did not get a reaction that you wanted is an insult, you have absolutely no idea what I've scanned, read, researched or studied in my own time away from these threads.

You have no idea, none, other than guesswork, I do hope that any claims you make about science or creation or anything else, are supported by more than guesswork.
The record shows that just in this thread I provided you with multiple papers on speciation, Barbarian provided you papers on the Cambrian, and you did not reply to, comment on, or even acknowledge them. In message board terms, that constitutes ignoring them.

You may not like that, but that's your issue, not anyone else's.
No it does not Jose, what it constitutes is "not responding" a rather different thing to "ignoring".

I may or may not respond to any number of things and may have a reason or it might have simply passed by me in the to-and-fro of the discussion, but it is illogical and insulting for you to then judge that I have ignored them.
So you chose not to respond and we should see that differently then ignoring?

Mom: Son, did you take out the garbage?
Son: ...
Mom: Why are you ignoring me?
Son: I'm not ignoring you, I just chose to not respond.
Dad: Well that seem rather disingenuous.
Son: You know what, I'm going to ignore that... by not responding.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #646

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Jose Fly wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:50 pm
Clownboat wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:30 pm It is a very powerful feeling to be able to convince oneself that they are an authority on a subject. For example: "I just happen to know that you all have been duped about the shape of the earth. I happen to know that science and Nasa are duping us and that the earth is actually flat".
Once done, it is very hard to relent as such a feeling (having convinced yourself that you are an actual authority) is very empowering.
Yup. I'm always struck by how many people who have no education or experience in evolutionary biology nevertheless anoint themselves experts in the field.
Does this mean you believe that a "non expert" cannot ever under any circumstances justifiably disagree with an "expert"?

Your remark serves one purpose Jose, to invalidate all unwelcome arguments before they can even be enunciated.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #647

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Clownboat wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:55 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:04 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:48 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:45 pm Please stop with the insults Jose, accusing me of "ignoring" because you did not get a reaction that you wanted is an insult, you have absolutely no idea what I've scanned, read, researched or studied in my own time away from these threads.

You have no idea, none, other than guesswork, I do hope that any claims you make about science or creation or anything else, are supported by more than guesswork.
The record shows that just in this thread I provided you with multiple papers on speciation, Barbarian provided you papers on the Cambrian, and you did not reply to, comment on, or even acknowledge them. In message board terms, that constitutes ignoring them.

You may not like that, but that's your issue, not anyone else's.
No it does not Jose, what it constitutes is "not responding" a rather different thing to "ignoring".

I may or may not respond to any number of things and may have a reason or it might have simply passed by me in the to-and-fro of the discussion, but it is illogical and insulting for you to then judge that I have ignored them.
So you chose not to respond and we should see that differently then ignoring?

Mom: Son, did you take out the garbage?
Son: ...
Mom: Why are you ignoring me?
Son: I'm not ignoring you, I just chose to not respond.
Dad: Well that seem rather disingenuous.
Son: You know what, I'm going to ignore that... by not responding.
I will ignore any post that attacks a paraphrased argument, you are attacking a strawman not any argument of mine, you are attacking a phantom of you own making not any argument of mine.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #648

Post by Jose Fly »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:57 pm Does this mean you believe that a "non expert" cannot ever under any circumstances justifiably disagree with an "expert"?
Nope, didn't say that.
Your remark serves one purpose Jose, to invalidate all unwelcome arguments before they can even be enunciated.
You sure do have thin skin.
Being apathetic is great....or not. I don't really care.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #649

Post by Clownboat »

William wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:53 pm [Replying to Clownboat in post #642]
Guess what those who do not accept the ToE are unable to do? Submit a better explanation!
Ad hominem aside, there is a better explanation than the universe came into existence through a mindless chaotic act.

Certainly the evidence I share hereabouts points to a mind behind it all.
My brush was too broad and my words in error.

I do appreciate that you have an alternative idea and that you are willing to discuss it. I did not mean to convey that all who do not accept the ToE are unable to submit other explanations and retract that statement as I was referring to a specific poster here.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #650

Post by Clownboat »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:00 pm
Clownboat wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:55 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:04 pm
Jose Fly wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:48 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:45 pm Please stop with the insults Jose, accusing me of "ignoring" because you did not get a reaction that you wanted is an insult, you have absolutely no idea what I've scanned, read, researched or studied in my own time away from these threads.

You have no idea, none, other than guesswork, I do hope that any claims you make about science or creation or anything else, are supported by more than guesswork.
The record shows that just in this thread I provided you with multiple papers on speciation, Barbarian provided you papers on the Cambrian, and you did not reply to, comment on, or even acknowledge them. In message board terms, that constitutes ignoring them.

You may not like that, but that's your issue, not anyone else's.
No it does not Jose, what it constitutes is "not responding" a rather different thing to "ignoring".

I may or may not respond to any number of things and may have a reason or it might have simply passed by me in the to-and-fro of the discussion, but it is illogical and insulting for you to then judge that I have ignored them.
So you chose not to respond and we should see that differently then ignoring?

Mom: Son, did you take out the garbage?
Son: ...
Mom: Why are you ignoring me?
Son: I'm not ignoring you, I just chose to not respond.
Dad: Well that seem rather disingenuous.
Son: You know what, I'm going to ignore that... by not responding.
I will ignore any post that attacks a paraphrased argument, you are attacking a strawman not any argument of mine, you are attacking a phantom of you own making not any argument of mine.
Readers, do you feel that I attacked a paraphrased argument, or his words above in bold?

Sherlock, I do not post for your benefit. Readers will judge for themselves as to whether you come across as honest or not here in this thread.
Nice dodge though! I trust our readers will see right through it.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

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