Russia Attacks Ukraine

[Diogenes]

For the first time since 1939 a major European power, Russia, has attacked another country in Europe, Ukraine. We have not seen an analogous situation since Germany attacked Poland setting off World War 2. Surprisingly we have Neville Chamberlain like appeasement/isolationist responses from Donald Trump and Tucker Carlson. Besides the 180 turn from traditional Republican politics, to what extent are these events relevant to Christianity?

[Abigail]

Senator Lindsay Graham is under fire for recently making a public comment saying people in Russia should assassinate Putin.
Good for him.
A 20 years long war criminal record and Putin is a billionaire....in RUSSIA!
Rather than put American or our allies "boots on the ground", take out the problem itself. Per Sen. Graham. Paraphrasing.

Personally, I think they're all in this together. World governance.
The stimulus checks Americans received during the Plandemic, and "lock down". (A term reserved for prisons). Now, government is getting their money back through, "Inflation".
Inflation is man made and part of organized planning by governments.

Money and control.
Those in control have all the money. Because we who are in majority but are the working class and poor labor to insure the rich get richer. The more we make the more they take. (Income Tax= Indentured Servitude).

Did you say Lindsay? personally I never trust a man who has a girl's or a duck's first name.

I never trust a man named after a fictional detective.

Fictional?

Of course. Sherlock Holmes was a character invented by the fiction author Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

[Diogenes]

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #129]
The entire world condemns Putin. One need not be an American 'Patriot' to condemn this vile attacks. This is the kind of aggression we have not seen a major country indulge in since the 2d World War.
I don't automatically trust the U.S. gov'mint but in this case all major news sources, including those thought most unbiased like Reuters, agree on the basic facts.
It takes only a cursory knowledge of the history of Ukraine to know this is an independent country Russia is recklessly and inhumanely attacking; it is not some Russian province that has gone astray. It's time to step out of our individual, 'party,' and 'patriotic' biases and become 'citizens of the world' and universally condemn this unprovoked and inhumane aggression.

[AgnosticBoy]

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #129]
The entire world condemns Putin. One need not be an American 'Patriot' to condemn this vile attacks. This is the kind of aggression we have not seen a major country indulge in since the 2d World War.
I don't automatically trust the U.S. gov'mint but in this case all major news sources, including those thought most unbiased like Reuters, agree on the basic facts.
It takes only a cursory knowledge of the history of Ukraine to know this is an independent country Russia is recklessly and inhumanely attacking; it is not some Russian province that has gone astray. It's time to step out of our individual, 'party,' and 'patriotic' biases and become 'citizens of the world' and universally condemn this unprovoked and inhumane aggression.

Keep in mind that nothing that you've said takes away from my point. That is the benefit of having a view that factors in the good points from both or all sides; that will usually lead to a well-rounded explanation/view. So let's walk through this.

Yes, Russia was wrong to invade Ukraine, BUT that doesn't mean that there's no room for criticism for the West. Being critical of the West does not mean that Russia was right. I haven't even seen anyone here claim that Russia was justified in invading Ukraine. What I've seen are some members criticizing the West when it comes to its hypocrisy. In fact, Ukraine itself has done some wrong in the midst of this invasion, starting with the mistreatment of their minorities. To only want to hear the good things that the West has done is biased. And to dismiss Russian claims a priori is also biased. It's also not practical if you expect to get along with them, which I assume we have to if we're not willing to take them out and they are a big player in the world.

[alexxcJRO]

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #129]
The entire world condemns Putin. One need not be an American 'Patriot' to condemn this vile attacks. This is the kind of aggression we have not seen a major country indulge in since the 2d World War.
I don't automatically trust the U.S. gov'mint but in this case all major news sources, including those thought most unbiased like Reuters, agree on the basic facts.
It takes only a cursory knowledge of the history of Ukraine to know this is an independent country Russia is recklessly and inhumanely attacking; it is not some Russian province that has gone astray. It's time to step out of our individual, 'party,' and 'patriotic' biases and become 'citizens of the world' and universally condemn this unprovoked and inhumane aggression.

Keep in mind that nothing that you've said takes away from my point. That is the benefit of having a view that factors in the good points from both or all sides; that will usually lead to a well-rounded explanation/view. So let's walk through this.

Yes, Russia was wrong to invade Ukraine, BUT that doesn't mean that there's no room for criticism for the West. Being critical of the West does not mean that Russia was right. I haven't even seen anyone here claim that Russia was justified in invading Ukraine. What I've seen are some members criticizing the West when it comes to its hypocrisy. In fact, Ukraine itself has done some wrong in the midst of this invasion, starting with the mistreatment of their minorities. To only want to hear the good things that the West has done is biased. And to dismiss Russian claims a priori is also biased. It's also not practical if you expect to get along with them, which I assume we have to if we're not willing to take them out and they are a big player in the world.

1. It does not follow from someone saying: "West is hypocritical" that someone is saying: "Russia is innocent".
It does not follow from someone saying: "Ukraine itself has done some wrong in the midst of this invasion, starting with the mistreatment of their minorities" that someone is saying: "Russia is not severely in the wrong in respect to their invasion".
Some might like to distract with illogical tribalism and false dichotomies.
Either you are with us(not criticize the West) or you are siding with the ones in the East.
It is possible that someone can criticizes the West and the Est too and even may be right. One side is criticized for hypocrisy and one side for invading a country.

2. Also it is illogical to defend Russia by saying look the West has done it too.
One human wrong doings do not excuse the wrong doings of another human.
Its like saying "but look Ted Bundy is a serial killer too" when people start accusing Garavito of his serial killings, his wrong doings.
If being a serial killer is wrong it does not matter who does it or if others have done it before.

One cannot ignore what he sees.

Analogy:
A guy who has throw many stones at others in his life, is at a certain moment in time yelling in horror and outrage at other for throwing stones.

Pot calling the kettle black. It's ridiculous.

It's like we are all living in the Idiocracy already.

[Sherlock Holmes]

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #129]
The entire world condemns Putin. One need not be an American 'Patriot' to condemn this vile attacks. This is the kind of aggression we have not seen a major country indulge in since the 2d World War.
I don't automatically trust the U.S. gov'mint but in this case all major news sources, including those thought most unbiased like Reuters, agree on the basic facts.
It takes only a cursory knowledge of the history of Ukraine to know this is an independent country Russia is recklessly and inhumanely attacking; it is not some Russian province that has gone astray. It's time to step out of our individual, 'party,' and 'patriotic' biases and become 'citizens of the world' and universally condemn this unprovoked and inhumane aggression.

So why the pitiless silence on Israel? why are you not posting about that outrage?

In 2019, the Trump administration made the United States the only foreign country to recognize Israels annexation of the Golan Heights, which Israel seized from Syria in the 1967 War. Tel Aviv University Law Professor Eliav Lieblich noted that the decision which contradicted a unanimous United Nations Security Council resolution supported by the US itself constituted a "significant departure from the bedrock legal prohibition of unilateral annexation." Yale Law Schools Oona Hathaway called the move "outrageous and potentially destabilizing to the postwar international order." The Russian government called it an "indication of the contempt that Washington shows for the norms of international law."

The above is from three years ago, three years before Ukraine, you were of course unware (or could it be you actually approve?) because the sources you get your "news" from make little if any mention of this outrageous theft of sovereign territory. When the West commit crimes there is nodding approval, when Russia commits them (as it is doing) there is shrieking, foot stamping and outrage and sanctions and seizing assets of "oligarchs" and waving Ukrainian flags and Facebook permitting posts that "call for the death of Russians".

Can you imagine Facebook permitting posts that "call for the death of Jews"? yet would that be any worse?

The "entire world" evidently does not "condemn Putin"

The contrast between these maps could not be more striking. The US, the UK, Canada, South Korea, Switzerland, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Taiwan, Singapore, the EU: beyond this fortified coalition, very few nations have chosen to take part in the economic warfare set against the Putin government. On the contrary, many of the worlds largest nations including China, India, Brazil, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Indonesia, and even Nato ally Turkey have refused to join in. "We will not blindly follow the steps taken by another country," said Indonesias foreign ministry representative at a recent press conference.

Latin America has been equally steadfast in its commitment to neutrality. "We do not consider that [this war] concerns us," said the Mexican president, Andrs Manuel Lpez Obrador. "We are not going to take any sort of economic reprisal because we want to have good relations with all governments." Argentina may have voted to condemn Russias actions at the UN, but its foreign minister, Santiago Cafiero, was adamant about his countrys non-participation in the new sanctions push: "Argentina does not consider that they are a mechanism to generate peace and harmony, or generate a frank dialogue table that serves to save lives."

That represents at least 50% of the world's population not condemning (abstaining or voting against resolution 68/262) Putin by my reckoning, so you can hardly say "the entire world" !

From The Guardian.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Democracy Now are a superb source of insightful news reporting, never afraid of controversy.

Here's short discussion about NATO and its role in what is now unfolding in Ukraine.

[g1unft70qc]

Ukraine is part of Russia, so ..

[bjs1]

Ukraine is part of Russia, so ..

That's like saying, "Texas is part of Mexico."

While the Ukraine was part of the USSR, it has been an independent nation for more than 30 years. It had long and varied history prior to the rise of the USSR in the early 20th century.

[alexxcJRO]

Ukraine is part of Russia, so ..

Russia and China were both part of the great Mongol Empire.
Q: Should we say Russia, China are part of Mongolia?

We could do this ad nauseam going back in time all over the glove.
Lets have invasion all over the world, with most countries invading others because of past history and back empires.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Something that's been a worry for me the past few weeks is the possibility that Ukraine might launch a "false flag" missile or rocket into some NATO member, on the border, and hope to create the impression that Russia has attacked a NATO member, thus possibly triggering the "no fly zone" that Zelenskiy is constantly begging for and calling everyone a coward.

The NATO members that border Ukraine are Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, even just a few days ago an unexplained drone crashed landed in Croatia. The drone apparently carried explosives' and flew across NATO airspace undetected for several hours.

There's also some disquiet about the way NATO and the EU reacted to this event:

NATO said the alliances integrated air and missile defense had tracked the objects flight path. But the Croatian prime minister said the countrys authorities were not informed and that NATO reacted only after question were posed by journalists.

"We cannot tolerate this situation, nor should it have ever happened," Prime Minister Andrej Plenkovic said while visiting the crash site.

"This was a pure and clear threat and both NATO and the EU should have reacted," he said. "We will work to raise the readiness not only of us but of others as well. "

Plenkovic said a Soviet-era Tu-141 "Strizh" reconnaissance drone flew for over 40 minutes over Hungary and six to seven minutes over Croatia before crashing. Earlier, Romanian defense authorities said the drone was in Romanias airspace for only three minutes after crossing from Ukraine, making it hard to intercept.

Plenkovic called on Hungarian authorities to launch an investigation into why its defenses apparently did not notice the unmanned drone as both Croatia and Romania had little time to react to the fast-moving object.

"Fortunately, something much worse did not happen," Plenkovic said, adding that Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban "found out about this after me."

"This could have fallen on the nuclear power plant in Hungary. Obviously there was no good reaction and other countries did not react well. Now we have a test from which we have to learn and react much better," he said.

He said that only an investigation can determine who launched the drone the Russians or the Ukrainians after the aircraft is pulled out of a large crater created after impact.

Both Russia and Ukraine have denied they launched the drone.

Military experts say Ukraine is the only known current operator of the Tu-141, which has a wingspan of nearly 4 meters (12 feet) and weighs just over 6 tons.

Croatia is of course a NATO member too, so what on earth is going on...