The Central Problem with Christianity

[Diogenes]

Jesus (and Paul) thought the world was going to end soon. This is why Jesus told people to give away their possessions, and Paul taught people should not marry. Jesus spoke very specifically about the world ending in the lifetime of those he preached to. [I won't go into the verses, because it will spawn the usual verbal gymnastics about how he did not mean what he said]

Christians, for the most part, ignore the idea of not attaining wealth. They also ignore the admonition not to marry. They ignore these basic Christian teachings because they don't like them. Instead, they claim Jesus didn't really mean what he said about the end coming soon. This provides cover for getting married and accumulating wealth.

The question for debate is, "Why do most Christians marry and try to accumulate wealth despite the very clear New Testament admonitions to do the opposite?

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth
and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal.
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor
rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal.

__ Matthew 6:19-20

[JehovahsWitness]

FYI, As you've written it, your question was not about "the published Jehovahs Witness policy,"---that which has already been published---but about publishing their official policy---that which is to be published: See below.

"Are you suggesting the Jehovah's Witnesses publish their official policy via thr Atlantic post?"

In view of the above comment , would you like to change your response?

.... No. I'm not suggesting any such thing,"

FURTHER READING :




What are the published Jehovah's Witnesse Child Protection Policies ? Jehovah's Witnesses' Scripturally Based Position on Child Protection
https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/legal- ... rotection/

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , CHILD ABUSE and ...SEXUAL IMMORALITY,

[Miles]

FYI, As you've written it, your question was not about "the published Jehovahs Witness policy,"---that which has already been published---but about publishing their official policy---that which is to be published: See below.

"Are you suggesting the Jehovah's Witnesses publish their official policy via thr Atlantic post?"

In view of the above comment , would you like to change your response?

Nah. I'm going to nap for awhile.


.

[Diogenes]

It is not my claim. It was the claim of an independent inquiry.

I see no such claim in the quotations provided. Where is it claimed that: "The official Jehovahs Witness policy that their members NOT report allegations or suspicions of child sexual abuse to the proper authorities unless the abuse is personally witnessed by two individuals or a confession obtained" ?

Apparently you are trying to make a distinction from the way the church 'elders' and leadership are instructed on how to handle criminal accusations within the church and whether there is a specific prohibition not to talk to law enforcement. I don't dispute that; however, too frequently it amounts to the same thing in that members fear they may be disfellowshipped or shunned if they report.

In fact, the church wrote a letter that justifies this fear:

The most recent letter, dated Nov. 6, 2014, instructed elders the spiritual leaders of local congregations to form confidential committees to handle potential criminal matters internally.

"In some cases, the elders will form a judicial committee to handle the alleged wrongdoing that may also constitute a violation of criminal law (e.g., murder, rape, child abuse, fraud, theft, assault)," the directive stipulates. "Generally, the elders should not delay the judicial committee process, but strict confidentiality must be maintained to avoid unnecessary entanglement with secular authorities who may be conducting a criminal investigation of the matter."

Within the organization, the Watchtower has final say over who is considered a serial child abuser. According to a 2012 Watchtower memo: "Not every individual who has sexually abused a child in the past is considered a predator. The (Watchtower), not the local body of elders, determines whether an individual who has sexually abused children in the past will be considered a predator. "

https://revealnews.org/article/jehovahs ... se-claims/

This "Generally, the elders should not delay the judicial committee process, but strict confidentiality must be maintained to avoid unnecessary entanglement with secular authorities who may be conducting a criminal investigation of the matter" clearly has the intent a mild "well don't actively interfere" while using stronger language about keeping confidentiality:
"strict confidentiality must be maintained to avoid unnecessary entanglement with secular authorities"

[JehovahsWitness]

I see no such claim in the quotations provided. Where is it claimed that: "The official Jehovahs Witness policy that their members NOT report allegations or suspicions of child sexual abuse to the proper authorities unless the abuse is personally witnessed by two individuals or a confession obtained" ?

... members fear they may be disfellowshipped or shunned if they report.

Do you have any evidence that reporting a crime or their suspicions that a crime has been committed to the appropriate legal authorities is a disfellowshiping offense within the Jehovah's Witness religion?


JW

FURTHER READING :




What are the published Jehovah's Witnesse Child Protection Policies ? Jehovah's Witnesses' Scripturally Based Position on Child Protection
https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/legal- ... rotection/

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , CHILD ABUSE and ...SEXUAL IMMORALITY,

[Eloi]

(...) members fear they may be disfellowshipped or shunned if they report (...)

I do not think that really happens. Do you have any proof that it does?

There is not reason for a Jehovah's Witness to fear to report any criminal act to the legal authorities, even if the criminal is an active Jehovah's Witness. The fact that a person is officially known as a Jehovah's Witness does not mean that he cannot become a wrogdoer or even a criminal... or he already is, secretly.

It is not for the elders of our congregations to condemn criminals, but for the competent authorities. The responsibility for the well-being of minors does not correspond directly to them either, but to their parents. The elders only can apply biblical principles to judge whether the wrongdoer repents, and what steps to take in the future in this regard. No Witness can supplant the secular authorities in this regard. There are religious institutions that are allowed to have their own courts; not us.

At no time will our organizational activities pose a danger to the integrity of a minor. We never isolate them in orphanages, boarding schools, etc. That's what other religious organizations do, not us.

[brunumb]

The facts, that only we can know, show that the largest percentage of people who stop being Witnesses is because they have committed sexual acts disapproved from God's point of view and want to continue living under their own rules.

Do these acts include being molested by elders, family members or other JWs?

[otseng]

And what makes you think I care?

Moderator Comment

At a minimum, please care about being civil.

Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[Tcg]

https://revealnews.org/article/jehovahs ... se-claims/

This "Generally, the elders should not delay the judicial committee process, but strict confidentiality must be maintained to avoid unnecessary entanglement with secular authorities who may be conducting a criminal investigation of the matter" clearly has the intent a mild "well don't actively interfere" while using stronger language about keeping confidentiality:
"strict confidentiality must be maintained to avoid unnecessary entanglement with secular authorities"

This is one of the things that is so sad about this situation. The welfare and protection of the victims isn't the primary concern but rather avoiding "unnecessary entanglement with secular authorities." It breaks my heart to know the long lasting and, in some ways, permanent damage that is being done. In spite of this, the priority is to protect the organization which results in the protection of the perpetrators which enables continued abuse.


Tcg

[JehovahsWitness]

..."strict confidentiality must be maintained to avoid unnecessary entanglement with secular authorities"

Are you suggesting that the above sentence amounts to instruction that knowledge of a crime or suspicion of a crime should not be reported to secular authorities? Or is it that the elders (who are not law enforcement agents) should not interfere or do anything that might undermine an ongoing investigation? From whom is strict confidentiality to be maintained? Do you have accesss to the original source of the above quotation so that the context can be referenced?

Please provide a reference for the original source of said quotation,


JW


For your information, I did address your accusation that Jehovahs Witnesses in general do NOT view molestation as a bad thing. viewtopic.php?p=1077314#p1077314

[Tcg]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #109]

As sad as it is, I am pleased whenever a JW brings up the issue of child sexual molestation because of offers yet another chance to document the realities of what takes place within the organization. Every time I google, "JW sexual abuse", invariably a new set of reports pop up. Anyone who doubts this fact can google the above search entries on a monthly basis and they'll get the same results I do month after month. And month after month they'll find reports of cover ups. What they won't find is any concern for the victims on the part of the JW branch of Christianity.


Tcg