Is it reasonable to believe in God?

[historia]

Is it reasonable to believe in God?

Note, the question here is not whether you think it is true that God exists, but simply whether such a belief is reasonable or not.

[theophile]

At heart Christianity is all about love, and taking care of others (including plants, animals, the earth, and any aliens that may be out there).

One would have to do some very serious editing of the Bible to reach that conclusion. And not just of the O.T., the N.T. as well. Jesus reportedly made plenty of horrible statements about the destiny of those who refuse to follow him. Love? Far from it.

But beyond that, I'm not sure how this addresses the O.P. question.


Tcg

Not editing. Perhaps just better understanding.

As to the OP question, it was about the reasonableness of God. My point from the beginning has been that some notions of God are far more reasonable than others. And we'd be remiss to keep insisting on the tired, old ideas that we often do. Like the notion that God is the causal force behind all things. Much better to think of God in softer terms like love. Or what I said before, as Word, Spirit, etc.

You may not like the Word, but you cannot deny the Word exists. You go on to cite a whole lot of it.

[theophile]

[Replying to theophile in post #49]

2. It gives atheists a fresh challenge in the form of next order 'Gods' and Christian thinking to debunk.

It is not the duty of atheists to "debunk" anything. If one comes up with a next order God and Christian thought, it is their duty to provide evidence such things are valid and actually exist. They'll also need to justify their rejection of the Bible's explanation of God which reveals that what is being describe is clearly a monster.


Tcg

Call it what you want man. Do you or do you not enjoy the intellectual stimulation of new ideas and debate? Nobody said anything about "duty".

[Tcg]

At heart Christianity is all about love, and taking care of others (including plants, animals, the earth, and any aliens that may be out there).

One would have to do some very serious editing of the Bible to reach that conclusion. And not just of the O.T., the N.T. as well. Jesus reportedly made plenty of horrible statements about the destiny of those who refuse to follow him. Love? Far from it.

But beyond that, I'm not sure how this addresses the O.P. question.


Tcg

Not editing. Perhaps just better understanding.

Now all you have to do is support your claim that your understanding is better. In doing so, you'll need to explain how the horrors claimed in the Bible aren't horrible. What have you?


Tcg

[Tcg]

[Replying to theophile in post #49]

2. It gives atheists a fresh challenge in the form of next order 'Gods' and Christian thinking to debunk.

It is not the duty of atheists to "debunk" anything. If one comes up with a next order God and Christian thought, it is their duty to provide evidence such things are valid and actually exist. They'll also need to justify their rejection of the Bible's explanation of God which reveals that what is being describe is clearly a monster.


Tcg

Call it what you want man. Do you or do you not enjoy the intellectual stimulation of new ideas and debate? Nobody said anything about "duty".

I enjoy it when claims are supported. Got any support for yours? Especially the bit about Christianity being about love. Should be easy given how convinced you are that it is true.


Tcg

[JehovahsWitness]

The wanton oppression and destruction of people is standard operating procedure in the Bible.

DOES THE BIBLE PROMOTE MINDLESS VIOLENCE ?

While the bible depicts a God that commissioned some selective wars whether in self defense or as an exercise of His right to destroy the wicked, this is a far cry from "wanton oppression and destruction". The people of God are never depicted as being sent indiscriminenly to inflict pain and suffering by a capriocious god for little or no reason, but rather as an expression of divine justice and retribution.

To suggest any part of the bible promotes cruelty is a gross misrepresentation of the biblical narrative.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS



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For more information go to other posts related to

RAPE, BIBLICAL KILLING and ... THE FLOOD OF NOAH'S DAY

[brunumb]

DOES THE BIBLE PROMOTE MINDLESS VIOLENCE ?

YES IT DOES.

To suggest any part of the bible promotes cruelty is a gross misrepresentation of the biblical narrative.

Isaiah 13:15-18

"Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished. Behold, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children."

Wanton cruelty.

[Tcg]

DOES THE BIBLE PROMOTE MINDLESS VIOLENCE ?

YES IT DOES.

To suggest any part of the bible promotes cruelty is a gross misrepresentation of the biblical narrative.

Isaiah 13:15-18

"Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished. Behold, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children."

Wanton cruelty.

Yeah, but those evil infants sinned by being born to the wrong parents and those wives by being married to the wrong husbands. Not sure what the young men did, but it must have been something the biblical god didn't like. Maybe shut the door on the JWs that came knocking on their door.


Tcg

[JoeyKnothead]

..
I understand that. My questions were more about why we insist on thinking God in this way, i.e., as the creator of all that is (and all the mess that follows from such an idea). I get that Christians claim it, and I get that atheists rightly disclaim it. What I don't get is why right-minded folks (Christian and atheist alike) don't just get on with it and start thinking God anew already. (Or frankly, in ways that are more in touch with original biblical expression, which does not show a God who created all that is).

There are some benefits if we do:
1. It frees Christians of a tired argument / dead 'God', and opens the horizon for a new (/more original) Christianity.
2. It gives atheists a fresh challenge in the form of next order 'Gods' and Christian thinking to debunk. Ones that don't come with the baggage of unreasonable attributes like God being the creator of all that is, and all the trouble this gets God into...

But hey, I totally get there is Christian extremism out there, and that should stop. I just don't think we should let such nonsense (or associated ideas) be the final word on God.

Why don't we all just go through Mein Kampf with a highlighter and pick out the parts we like?

When folks declare there's a god "up there", we'll soon see em using that 'knowledge' to oppress others. It's the unavoidable way of religion.

There are, aplenty, good Christians who otherwise disregard the bible's worst teachings, no doubt. I contend though, that where hateful dialog remains, well there we go.

[JehovahsWitness]

DOES THE BIBLE PROMOTE MINDLESS VIOLENCE ?

YES IT DOES.

NO IT DOES NOT

Isaiah 13:15-18
Wanton cruelty.

Isaiah 13:15-18
Not wanton cruelty.

[Miles]

DOES THE BIBLE PROMOTE MINDLESS VIOLENCE ?

YES IT DOES.

NO IT DOES NOT

Well you do have a point here.
While the attack was cruel: innocent wives were ravished
The attack was violent: Houses were plundered and infants were dashed to pieces
And the attack was deliberate: "The infants will be dashed to pieces"
It was not unprovoked. There was a reason for it all: The world was evil.

Isaiah 13:11-16
11 I will punish the world for its evil . . . .
12
13
14
15 Whoever is found will be thrust through,
and whoever is caught will fall by the sword.
16 Their infants will be dashed in pieces
before their eyes;
etc.
etc.

And why was there evil in the world? Because god wanted it that way. He put it there.

Isaiah 45:7
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

So, why would a loving god do such a thing? Make a trap so he could punish his creatures, be they victims of his evil or not? Because he's psychologically unhinged. Either that or he's a vicious god masquerading as Mr. nice guy selling snake oil.


.