God's violent ways

[OnceConvinced]

The god of the bible tends do deal with sin and evil in very violent ways. Ie, wiping out cities, sending floods, ordering violent deaths, ordering the slaying of animals for sacrifices, sending curses and plagues, etc.

Can you point out any instances in the bible where God deals with sin and evil in non-violent ways?

And I mean God here. Not Jesus.
And there are times God showed mercy and didn't deal with the sin and evil, sure. But when he did, were there non-violent methods used?

[JehovahsWitness]

I believe it was you originally claiming that God wasn't violent, but the old testament shows us the opposite.

I don't believe it does. The God of the bible isn't violent, he's forceful. Some of that force is deadly. One of the definitions of "violence" in Merriam-Websters is ...

VIOLENCE

2: injury by or as if by distortion, infringement, or profanation
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/violence

FURTHER READING
https://evolveconsciousness.org/force-violence/

[Tcg]

I believe it was you originally claiming that God wasn't violent, but the old testament shows us the opposite.

I don't believe it does. The God of the bible isn't violent, he's forceful. Some of that force is deadly. One of the definitions of "violence" in Merriam-Websters is ...

VIOLENCE

2: injury by or as if by distortion, infringement, or profanation
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/violence

FURTHER READING
https://evolveconsciousness.org/force-violence/

Here's another definition.

• vi·o·lence
  
  noun: violence
  behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something.

If they hadn't been killed due to God's bragging, we could ask Job's original family if this applies to the God who allowed Satan to kill them.


Tcg

[OnceConvinced]

…This was Jesus who taught that. I'm talking about God himself. Can you think of any times where God didn't use violent or cruel means to deal with the problem of sin? It would be hypocritical if God himself had taught that, wouldn't it? …

Firstly, Jesus said:

For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. I know that his commandment is eternal life. The things therefore which I speak, even as the Father has said to me, so I speak."
John 12:49-50

So, it is God’s message, according to the Bible.

Whether Jesus was God, whether he had direct communication with God, or whether he was God's messager, is irrelevent and a whole new debate. The fact remains the god of the old testament chose to use violent means to deal with the problem of sin. And he even had Jesus brutalised on the cross!

So far you've come up with no examples of God dealing with sin in a non-violent way. Telling humans to be nice to each other is not dealing with the problem of sin.

Secondly, the same is said also in the Old Testament:

… you shall love your neighbor as yourself…. … The stranger who lives as a foreigner with you shall be to you as the native-born among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you lived as foreigners in the land of Egypt. I am Yahweh your God.
Lev. 19:18,34

Tjhis is not God dealing with the problem of sin. This seems to be more of a case of "Do as I say, don't do as I do."

Please show even one time in the old testament where God dealt with sin in a non violent way.

All you have shown me is how hypocritical God is. He tells us not to be violent towards each other but violence seems to be his modus operandi. And he still uses violence doesn't he? Earthquakes, hurricanes, viruses. Make them suffer! That seems to be his way of dealing with everyone who angers him. Please show this is not the case. And just quoting empty words from the bible isn't gong to cut it. Actions speak louder than words and the OT shows us God's actions big time.

[OnceConvinced]

I believe it was you originally claiming that God wasn't violent, but the old testament shows us the opposite.

I don't believe it does. The God of the bible isn't violent, he's forceful.

I supposed you consider stoning someone to death or whacking a child with a rod, just forceful?

If ordering the stoning of a guy for picking up sticks on the Sabbath or raizing cities to the ground, if drowning babies or sending a bear to tear a bunch of kids apart, is just considered "forceful" then what methods would you consider truly violent?

But regardless, it's interesting that you could not find any examples of God in the OT dealing with sin without using your sugar-coated version of the word "Violent".

[JehovahsWitness]

I supposed you consider stoning someone to death or whacking a child with a rod, just forceful?

Well that would depend on the circumstances, but I'm not in principle against either as they may indeed be an expression of justifiable force, yes.

If ordering the stoning of a guy for picking up sticks on the Sabbath or raizing cities to the ground, if drowning babies or sending a bear to tear a bunch of kids apart, is just considered "forceful" then what methods would you consider truly violent?

Doing so without due authority and justification.

But regardless, it's interesting that you could not find any examples of God in the OT dealing with sin without using your sugar-coated version of the word "Violent".

It is not a {quote} "sugar-coated version of the word "Violent"" ...it is one of the dictionary based meanings of the word "violent" and when we analyse general usage, not an uncommon one (which is why the definition found its way into a dictionary in the first place). In short "violence" is often used when describing acts which impinge on human rights or the cause distortion of natural justice.

VIOLENCE

2: injury by or as if by distortion, infringement, or profanation
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/violence

FURTHER READING Is Force the Same as Violence?
https://evolveconsciousness.org/force-violence/


JW




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[Tcg]

I supposed you consider stoning someone to death or whacking a child with a rod, just forceful?

Wellnthat would depend on the circumstances, but I'm not in prjnciple against either and they may indeed be an expression of justifiable force, yes.

Of course, violence is acceptable to you because your God is violent. Pretending the justifiable force isn't violent is simply an excuse similar to those who suffer domestic violence use to pretend that their partner isn't abusive.


Tcg

[OnceConvinced]

sugar coating of the word "violent".

You're simply playing word games here. Trying to change what my original post is trying to illustrate. Dodging the questions I've asked.


How about I simply reword my thread title and opening post:

God's sadistic ways.


The god of the bible tends do deal with sin and evil in very sadistic ways. Ie, wiping out cities, sending floods, ordering violent deaths, ordering the slaying of animals for sacrifices, sending curses and plagues, etc.

Can you point out any instances in the bible where God deals with sin and evil in non-sadistic ways?

And I mean God here. Not Jesus.
And there are times God showed mercy and didn't deal with the sin and evil, sure. But when he did, were there non-sadistic methods used?

Quotes from other threads

I'm not interested in reading other threads. Your points in those threads have already been debated, rejected and debunked by other members in those threads. It would require a lot of time for me to read them all. It would simply mean a hundred more things I have to address here and my time is limited.

[JehovahsWitness]

You're simply playing word games here.

No I am simply refering to dictionary definitions of the words under discussion and presenting a reasoned response based thereon. Clearly defining ones terms is a fundamental in debate.


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Can you point out any instances in the bible where God deals with sin and evil in non-sadistic ways?

SADISTIC

deriving pleasure from inflicting pain, suffering, or humiliation on others.

DOES THE GOD OF THE BIBLE ACT IN A SADISTIC WAY?

The definition of SADISTIC requires we know how someone thinks and feels about a given action. A soldier, for example may kill someone but killing or punishing someone of itself isn't proof of sadism. If he enjoyed it, and the act itself brought him pleasure, then possibly that would indicate he was a sadist. Few of us claim to possess mind reading capacities, especially when it comes to an omnipotent God, but we can observe that the God of the bible never expresses pleasure from inflicting pain or suffering on others. Indeed quite the opposite the bible states :

EZEKIEL 33:11

“As surely as I am alive,� declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, “I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that someone wicked changes his way and keeps living

SLOW TO ANGER; ABUNDANT IN LOVING KINDNESS

Jehovah is identified in scripture as a patient and kind God that isn't quick to anger. He treats sinners with compassion, warns them of the consequences of their actions and provides a means to avoid adverse judgement

• When the convicted murderer Cain feared he would be murdered during the course of his punishment, God responded by pronouncing a mandate that Cain be protected.
• When convicted seditionists Adam and Eve joined Satan in open rebellion he nevertheless let them all live long and relatively pain free lives, rather than execute them on the spot.
• When God judged it necessary to send a global flood he also commission Noah (who preached a warning of events to come) to build an ark big enough so any sinners and their children that wanted to join him and be saved could have.
• When God the builders of the tower of Babel disobeyed a direct command to disperse, he did not kill them but simply ensured their project to masse together would fail.
• When In the wilderness when the Israelites rebelled, complained, threatened to kill his representatives, and openly defied him time and time again, he fed them, clothed them and protected them and that for 40 years. And dispite the emltional pain they caused him, he didn't renounce on his promise to lead them as a people to the promised land.
• God didn't destroy the barbaric Ninevites for their obscenely bloodthirsty behaviour, he recognised they didn't know any better and sent Jonah to warn them to change.
• When Jonah, a Prophet of the true God, ran away from active service, in opposition a direct command from a superior, God did not have him courtmatialed and executed, he provided submarine transportation back from his hiding place and simply reissued the command.
• When his own people violated all that was holy and resorted to pagan practices such as child sacrifice he didn't wipe them out he punished them with exile and eventually allowed them to return home.

God cannot tolerate wickedness indefinitely, as he must protect the innocent and give them justice. That said however the God of the bible repeatedly shows himself to be patient, kind, balanced and compassionate. Jesus pointed out a fundamental aspect of Jehovah's (YHWH) character, saying

MATTTHEW 5:45

Your Father who is in the heavens,... he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous.

CONCLUSION It seems fashionable today to accuse the God of the bible of being "violent" and "sadistic" and "bloodthirsty" but an examination of scripture indicates quite the opposite. JEHOVAH/Yaweh is depicted in scripture as a forceful but righteous God who who never exercises his considerable power and authority in a cruel, arbitrary or unjustified manner.

JW

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[marco]

It seems fashionable today to accuse the God of the bible of being "violent" and "sadistic" and "bloodthirsty" but an examination of scripture indicates quite the opposite. JEHOVAH/Yaweh is depicted in scripture as a forceful but righteous God who who never exercises his considerable power and authority in a cruel, arbitrary or unjustified manner.

An "examination" will find instances of horrific acts by Jehovah. Good will can construe other actions as indicative of mercy. When a being is judged for doing or advocating evil (slaughter infants and babies; kill your own son; wipe out the world's population, children included) other acts that indicate niceness are quite irrelevant. One might as well argue mercy for a murderer who has helped a few old ladies across the road.


When Jehovah is called loving and merciful it may well be that sarcasm is being used.