A Question Unanswered, When in Church...

[POI]

During the last year or so of attending church, I was still reluctant to ask probing questions for fear of 'rocking the boat'. In the back of each chair were suggestion/question cards, which anyone could fill out and turn in... I asked the same question, about a dozen times, and never received any type of response.

For debate:

Why would an all knowing and all loving God ever place favor towards one specific race, the Jews?

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to POI in post #21]

Okay, so why not explain how the answers do not work logically?

You asked: Why would an all knowing and all loving God ever place favor towards one specific race, the Jews?

I will reword this question based on what we discussed.

Why would and all-knowing and all-loving God ever place favor toward the Jews or toward any people or person?

Why is the following answer not logical?

Because God wills it within his omniscience and lovingness.



God merits all based on who they are in total, that is who they are in God's omniscience, which is to know all their actions ever for all time.

God knows ALL Abrahams actions ever and in that omniscience and all lovingness, he chooses Abraham for part of his plan.

But that is a faithclaim and a faithclim not only for the OT which you already admitted is Not True here and there but a faithclaim to excuse what is a problem. I recall that you claimed you could refute (in fact I think you said 'explain') all the problems. Well of course anyone who appeals to dismissive 'God knows best' godfaith can do that.

My main goal is to show that a worldview with God existing can be internally consistent. That is about all we can really expect from anyone's worldview. No one has yet to prove their whole worldview.

It is possible to convince someone of the worldview that includes God, but it can happen. I just received an email from someone that thanked me for the reason they came to believe in God because he read some of my arguments and watched some of my videos. But it took some months before it changed his mind.

But that is just a spray - painted and papered - over faithclaim that makes no sense being excused. 'It's not even a new excuse - 'God knows best; it may not make sense to us, but it makes sense to God'. The Believer can use that sort of excuse to dismiss Any Bible problem. That is what I recall I said earlier on, what you call explaining all the problems is not explanation, but excuses and evasions. If so, you should be intellectually honest and admit that you have no valid rational 'explanation' but only Faithbased dismissal of the problem through 'God knows best'.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #21]

Okay, so why not explain how the answers do not work logically?

You asked: Why would an all knowing and all loving God ever place favor towards one specific race, the Jews?

I will reword this question based on what we discussed.

Why would and all-knowing and all-loving God ever place favor toward the Jews or toward any people or person?

Why is the following answer not logical?

Because God wills it within his omniscience and lovingness.



God merits all based on who they are in total, that is who they are in God's omniscience, which is to know all their actions ever for all time.

God knows ALL Abrahams actions ever and in that omniscience and all lovingness, he chooses Abraham for part of his plan.

But that is a faithclaim and a faithclim not only for the OT which you already admitted is Not True here and there but a faithclaim to excuse what is a problem. I recall that you claimed you could refute (in fact I think you said 'explain') all the problems. Well of course anyone who appeals to dismissive 'God knows best' godfaith can do that.

My main goal is to show that a worldview with God existing can be internally consistent. That is about all we can really expect from anyone's worldview. No one has yet to prove their whole worldview.

It is possible to convince someone of the worldview that includes God, but it can happen. I just received an email from someone that thanked me for the reason they came to believe in God because he read some of my arguments and watched some of my videos. But it took some months before it changed his mind.

But that is just a spray - painted and papered - over faithclaim that makes no sense being excused. 'It's not even a new excuse - 'God knows best; it may not make sense to us, but it makes sense to God'. The Believer can use that sort of excuse to dismiss Any Bible problem. That is what I recall I said earlier on, what you call explaining all the problems is not explanation, but excuses and evasions. If so, you should be intellectually honest and admit that you have no valid rational 'explanation' but only Faithbased dismissal of the problem through 'God knows best'.

Once again you are just naming things without any demonstration of logic. Please show the problem, then show how the solution to the problem cannot follow logically.

[POI]

Why is the following answer not logical?

Well, let's see, shall we...? Below are your given answers from post #9:

1. Because God wills it within his omniscience and lovingness.
2. Because God is not actually placing favor toward Hebrews but toward one person like Abraham, and then promised Abraham that he would bless his children and does so. God chose to bless Abraham within his omniscience and lovingness (all loving).
3. Because God sees that in all time (his omniscience), these are the best people to attempt to bring my glory to the world via their own kingdom and king, knowing they will fail, then he will bring his kingdom to earth (all loving) and hand to keys directly to Peter. That kingdom brings his glory and many are saved. (all loving) It becomes the biggest religion ever.

***************************

Here's my responses:

1. Stating "God wills it", based upon His powers of omniscience and love does not answer the question -- as to why God places favor towards persons, who possess attributes for which they have no control over.

2. My OP does not specify one isolated case. Take the topic of 'slavery', for instance. Apparently, God states the following:

"but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.". God is placing favor over an entire group, based upon an attribute for which they have no control over.

3. This response is nonsense. Each person would be judged upon their own merit. Ethnicity, race, hair color, eye color, gender, etc has no relevancy to character.

Here's my current hypothesis.... The Bible was written by bronze-aged men alone, and these writers also placed favor towards their own. Reaching this assumption/conclusion requires much less necessary 'spin'.

[POI]

Peace to you,

2. Because God is not actually placing favor toward Hebrews but toward one person like Abraham, and then promised Abraham that he would bless his children and does so.

I have to agree with AquinasForGod, God did not favor the Jews [as in the Israelites] because they were faithful and loyal (on the contrary the bible record presents them as a particularly stubborn and rebellious people). God made a promise to a friend, ABRAHAM because he (Abraham) was faithful and loyal.

Jesus had to be born a human being, so by necessity had to have a nationality, the descendents of Abraham were given that privilege.



JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

If you cannot see how this argument is faulty, then I do not know what to say....

Perhaps you could just say what is faulty about this argument? Because I don't see it either.

Thanks.

Post 33

[POI]

1) Then your rationale does not follow. If some Jews were not loyal to god, then giving exclusivity to the Jews makes no sense.
2) You cannot choose your race, can you?
3) Why test the ones who are already deemed loyal?
4) Again, I'm speaking about race. Why did god grant favor to one specific race? As the OP asks....

1) Sorry to hear that it doesn't make sense to you. In any case, God made promises for the ancestors of the Jews, because they were loyal to God. But, as you could see from the Bible, if a Jew is unrighteous, the promises are not helpful for him.
2) I don't think there are different human races.
3) How are they tested?
4) Bible doesn't say God made promise for some race.

1) Why would god care who one's father was? Each individual would be judged upon their own character.
2) You've missed the point. God places favor, based upon an attribute which cannot be controlled.
3) So you are saying God tested no "Jews"?
4) You've missed the point again. If one person is deemed 'good', why also grant favor to any their offspring? Each individual should start with the same set of standards, right?

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #33]

1. Stating "God wills it", based upon His powers of omniscience and love does not answer the question -- as to why God places favor towards persons, who possess attributes for which they have no control over.

That is not what it is based upon. God chooses based on the total of what the person will be in all time. It just happens that Abraham was Hebrew. He could have been Irish, it would have made no difference. Being Hebrew is an accidental property that God doesn't measure us by.

So God wills it because of his omniscience and love.

"but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.". God is placing favor over an entire group, based upon an attribute for which they have no control over.

That is not why, though, which I already explained.

[1213]

1) Why would god care who one's father was? Each individual would be judged upon their own character.
2) You've missed the point. God places favor, based upon an attribute which cannot be controlled.
3) So you are saying God tested no "Jews"?
4) You've missed the point again. If one person is deemed 'good', why also grant favor to any their offspring? Each individual should start with the same set of standards, right?

1) I think you should read the Bible. The promise that was given for the ancestors is not useful, if a later Jew is unrighteous/evil.
2) Sorry, I don't think that is true.
3) At the moment I have no reason to think God tests anyone.
4) I think there is same standard for all.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to POI in post #21]

Okay, so why not explain how the answers do not work logically?

You asked: Why would an all knowing and all loving God ever place favor towards one specific race, the Jews?

I will reword this question based on what we discussed.

Why would and all-knowing and all-loving God ever place favor toward the Jews or toward any people or person?

Why is the following answer not logical?

Because God wills it within his omniscience and lovingness.



God merits all based on who they are in total, that is who they are in God's omniscience, which is to know all their actions ever for all time.

God knows ALL Abrahams actions ever and in that omniscience and all lovingness, he chooses Abraham for part of his plan.

But that is a faithclaim and a faithclim not only for the OT which you already admitted is Not True here and there but a faithclaim to excuse what is a problem. I recall that you claimed you could refute (in fact I think you said 'explain') all the problems. Well of course anyone who appeals to dismissive 'God knows best' godfaith can do that.

My main goal is to show that a worldview with God existing can be internally consistent. That is about all we can really expect from anyone's worldview. No one has yet to prove their whole worldview.

It is possible to convince someone of the worldview that includes God, but it can happen. I just received an email from someone that thanked me for the reason they came to believe in God because he read some of my arguments and watched some of my videos. But it took some months before it changed his mind.

But that is just a spray - painted and papered - over faithclaim that makes no sense being excused. 'It's not even a new excuse - 'God knows best; it may not make sense to us, but it makes sense to God'. The Believer can use that sort of excuse to dismiss Any Bible problem. That is what I recall I said earlier on, what you call explaining all the problems is not explanation, but excuses and evasions. If so, you should be intellectually honest and admit that you have no valid rational 'explanation' but only Faithbased dismissal of the problem through 'God knows best'.

Once again you are just naming things without any demonstration of logic. Please show the problem, then show how the solution to the problem cannot follow logically.

It is ludicrous for you to demand logic in respect of illogic. And it's already been explained. A logic construct even if valid on ist' own terms, is illogical if the parameters are invalid, and unsupposrted Faithclaims are invalid.

This is one God knows ALL Abrahams actions ever and in that omniscience and all lovingness, he chooses Abraham for part of his plan." That is not validated by anything and is just a Faithclaim. Not only from the view of Bible -sceptics but I recall that you were prepared to reject Genesis as anything that actually happened and is more a metaphor for the condition of humans. So why should we credit anything the Bible says about Abraham?

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to POI in post #33]

1. Stating "God wills it", based upon His powers of omniscience and love does not answer the question -- as to why God places favor towards persons, who possess attributes for which they have no control over.

That is not what it is based upon. God chooses based on the total of what the person will be in all time. It just happens that Abraham was Hebrew. He could have been Irish, it would have made no difference. Being Hebrew is an accidental property that God doesn't measure us by.

So God wills it because of his omniscience and love.

"but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.". God is placing favor over an entire group, based upon an attribute for which they have no control over.

That is not why, though, which I already explained.

That will hardly do. I can get the idea of God choosing to favor one particular person on the basis of their Righteousness (though in this case, 'Righteousness seems to be Belief in a particular god and willingness to do whatever it orders), but that hardly justifies a promise made to all Abraham's offspring, the Jews, in the end, which is what we said all along and someone was trying to pretend it was different.

Aside that God apparently cast aside the Jews and favoured the gentiles (as soon as the Material was written by non Jewish Christians, which is MY Faithclaim) God should be 'no respector of persons' , nor race or lineage, but of individuals, and not on the basis of where they go to worship or indeed religion at all - if it makes any claim to be moral or even credible. As usual, in the end, the argument presented to the doubters is incoherent, illogical and lacking morality.

It occurred to me to ask a short while ago, after reading prophetic promises, looking remarkably like threats - to any believer; why when Jesusgod comes in pow'r, do you think you will be ok? Are you such a moral person that you'll be fine, fine, fine, while the Others will be wailing and gnashing their teeth? Why? Even if you reckon you're a particularly Good Person, it's not works but Faith that counts. I'm more worried about nuclear or asteroid strikes than I am about the supposed prophetic coming. Why does the believer not give a moment's worry about it being Allah rolling up and starting to Judge people?

The whole thing makes absolutely no sense without Faith- based thinking and selective Faith, too.

[RIP]

[Replying to POI in post #1]

The only answer is: because God is racist. Oh my? Where is the NAACP? Where is Affirmative Action?

It is only in the 'world' ruled by Satan, and in America in particular, that racism is branded as the 'great evil'.

So, God created and chose the Jews to be the race of people who would identify with Him and in whom He would rule over the earth. God made the distinction after the Flood of Noah's day between the races of man. (Gen. 9:24-29) Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Ham's descendants were cursed. (Gen. 9:25) Shem recieves the blessing and Ham's descendants are his slave. (Gen. 9:26) God will enlarge Japheth and he will be blessed with Shem, and Ham's descendants are his slave. (Gen. 9:27)

From Shem would come the Jews. From Ham would come Africa. From Japheth would come the white folk. My, what a racist God is. How different God is from the worlds and Satan's perspective. America elevates the children of Ham to America's demise. America goes against God. But, guess what, that doesn't change the blessing and curses God laid out in (Gen.9:24-29). Houses are cheap in Detroit.

Rip