A Question Unanswered, When in Church...

[POI]

During the last year or so of attending church, I was still reluctant to ask probing questions for fear of 'rocking the boat'. In the back of each chair were suggestion/question cards, which anyone could fill out and turn in... I asked the same question, about a dozen times, and never received any type of response.

For debate:

Why would an all knowing and all loving God ever place favor towards one specific race, the Jews?

[RIP]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #44]

Not confused at all. It is clear. The Holy Spirit forbade them to go in a certain direction, which they were wanting to go, and instead led them to Europe. (Acts 16:6-10)

How about that? God sent the Gospel to Europe, and as a result, Europe was Christianized. And Europe, the white folk, are from Japheth. God is true to His Word. Japheth shall be blessed with Shem.

Rip

[RIP]

[Replying to POI in post #49]

Yes, I am sure. Scripture is clear.

You don't have to believe it. But that is the testimony of Scripture. And as a Christian, that is what I believe.

Rip

[Purple Knight]

The bible must be interpreted in light of reason. If the interpretation contradicts sound reason, then the interpretation is at fault.

I couldn't agree more. Here's my interpretation.

Why would an all knowing and all loving God ever place favor towards one specific race, the Jews?

Because he's not all-loving, and he is the god specifically of the Jews. But that amount of worship doesn't satisfy him; like all gods he wants the world. And this particular god got it. By lying... and saying he already had it.

This is just one possible interpretation of Biblical cannon. I just wouldn't trust any god that said he was the only one that existed and had love for everyone when 1) the Bible seems to indicate this is not the case and 2) up until then, every single god had coverage over certain niches and not others. I wouldn't trust Athena if she said she was the only god either. She just wasn't smart enough to actually do it.

Now, I don't think any of this is true. I don't think Athena exists either. But this interpretation... you have to admit, it fits well with what gods are and how they work, which is, to be fair, an understanding older than the Bible. Something being a good fit doesn't mean it's true, however.

[AquinasForGod]

That is not why, though, which I already explained.

So when God states "you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly", He is not placing favor upon an attribute which such humans cannot control? Are you sure?

I am sure. God offers no one favor based on their accidental properties. The bible must be interpreted in light of reason. If the interpretation contradicts sound reason, then the interpretation is at fault.

LOL! So you cannot give me a 'reason', but there must be Got it

I gave the reason, but perhaps you already forgot. God chose Abraham based on who he is in all time, everything he would ever do. He then blessed his offspring, not because of accidental properties but because they must obey the commands.

Remember, they could be tossed out of the community if they did not obey certain laws, or even killed.

He actually made it harder for the descendants of Abraham. Gentiles only have to keep the 7 laws of Noah. Jews have to do far more.

[tam]

Peace again to you all,

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #41]

Seems Jesus was racist. (Matt. 15:21-28)

People make "Jesus" over into whatever image they want. It seems you (or someone you trust) has made your version of "Jesus" into a racist.

But there is nothing racist in the example you list above. Plus, those verses undermine what you seem to be trying to say... since the Caananite woman was granted her request and praised for having had great faith. Not to mention the FACT that the invitation opened up after His death and resurrection and ascension, to more than just the lost sheep of Israel, to anyone with faith in Him and His Father. These things undermine your entire argument (or if it is not your personal argument, then the argument that someone else has sold you).

But you might also want to keep in mind the FACT that people from EVERY tribe, nation, people and tongue ... will reign with Christ in His Kingdom for a thousand years. Rev 5:9, 7:9.

Every tribe.

Every nation.

Every people.

Every tongue.

That alone should be enough to defeat the argument you are presenting. You might also want to consider the fact that your argument is based upon some interpretation of man playing on some vague details of something written in the OT... and NOT based on anything Christ taught. That should give you pause. If you call yourself a Christian, then should it not be Christ to whom you are listening? Mark 9:7


Do we have a single example of Christ saying that He will not grant someone's request or invite them into the new covenant based upon the color of their skin; or that they are not permitted to hear and accept the gospel based on the color of their skin? Or based upon whichever of the three sons of Noah they might have descended from? Of course we have no such example! Because it is not true. If it were true, we would have something from Christ stating that truth, but we do not. Christ speaks nothing of this; the apostles speak nothing of this; Paul speaks nothing of this; Revelation (which is from Christ) speaks nothing of this - and does in fact refute your argument by speaking of EVERY tribe, nation, people and tongue reigning with Christ in the Kingdom. Not just Israel. Not just 'white folk'. Every tribe, nation, people and tongue.


Also, Christ - the actual person, not the various versions of "Jesus" that people make up - was not white. Just an fyi.

Seems God was racist favoring the white folk. (Acts 16:6-10)

Why? Because at one time in one assignment, Paul and his companions were prevented from going to the province of Asia, and were instead sent to Macedonia? That doesn't even make sense. There is no good or even logical reason to draw the conclusion that you have drawn simply because Paul and companions were sent to Macedonia instead of Asia at that time. In fact, what you should be considering is the fact that Paul and companions had no problem going to Asia. This "Ham" theory that some later men have invented all on their own, was apparently unknown to Paul and to his companions.

Second, you don't even know why Paul and companions were prevented from going to Asia, because the reason is not given. Perhaps they were simply needed more urgently at that time in Macedonia.

Once again,

Every tribe.

Every nation.

Every people.

Every tongue.

Keep in mind also that Paul spoke of there being no Jew or Gentile, male or female, slave or free, for 'you are all one in Christ.' Jew and Gentile covers everyone in the world. You were a Jew or you were a Gentile.




Peace again to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ Jaheshua,
tammy

[brunumb]

1) Why would god care who one's father was? Each individual would be judged upon their own character.
2) You've missed the point. God places favor, based upon an attribute which cannot be controlled.
3) So you are saying God tested no "Jews"?
4) You've missed the point again. If one person is deemed 'good', why also grant favor to any their offspring? Each individual should start with the same set of standards, right?

1) I think you should read the Bible. The promise that was given for the ancestors is not useful, if a later Jew is unrighteous/evil.
2) Sorry, I don't think that is true.
3) At the moment I have no reason to think God tests anyone.
4) I think there is same standard for all.

Just another load of unjustified opinions. How about providing some support for your claims, otherwise they are worthless in debate.

[POI]

He actually made it harder for the descendants of Abraham. Gentiles only have to keep the 7 laws of Noah. Jews have to do far more.

So you agree God places favor, based upon attributes they cannot control -- (see your bold statement above). Glad you agree with me.

Remember, in the OP, I asked a general question. I used no specific example.

[1213]

I have. Have you? God favors one ethnic group. If this were not the case, God would have spread His miracles around the globe.....

I think the message of Jesus has been spread around the world, which is why your claim is not true.

[RIP]

[Replying to tam in post #55]

I agree...people like to make Jesus and God into the image they want. Be careful not to exclude yourself in that statement.

The opening post asked why does God favor the race of the Jews. Now, you can try and define race in a way that there is no such thing as race. But the fact is, God has drawn a distinction between Jew and Gentile. And He has chosen the Jews as His particular earthly people.

(Deut. 7:6) "For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth."

And Jesus Christ acknowledged that distinction in (Matt. 15:21-28) when speaking to the Gentile woman. In (15:24) He says, "...I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." In (15:26) He says, "...It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs."

That distinction Jesus acknowledged did not change when He healed the woman. The woman acknowledged it also. (15:27) "And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters table." She was willing to take her place as a Gentile outside of the blessed chosen people, the Jews.

That distinction Jesus acknowledged when speaking to the Samritan woman at the well. (John 4:22) "Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews."

That salvation is offered to all, doesn't change the distinction between the Jews and the various races of the Gentiles. It doesn't change the fact of God's special choosing of the Jews to Himself. In one of the verses you gave, (Rev. 7:9), look at the versese immediately preceeding it. (Rev. 7:4-8) Here God sealed the 144,000 Jews to be especially protected during the Tribulation.

Concerning (Acts 16:6-10) the Holy Spirit sent Paul to Europe because He wanted Europe Christianized. And it did become Christian, as I said, from pauper to King. These were the people of Japheth which fulfills (Gen. 9:27). "God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem" Just as God's chosen people, Israel, fulfills (Gen. 9:26). "Blessed be the LORD God of Shem" Because Israel comes from Shem. (Gen. 11:10-30)

Your use of (Gal. 3:28) that we are all one in Christ pertains to the believer only and to his place in Christ. It does not pertain to or remove all racial distinctions in the world. It does not pertain to even the believers position in the world. Paul said salvation was to the Jew first and then to the Gentile. (Rom. 1:16) And Paul was true to that. (Acts 17:1-2) And Paul recognized Onesimus as still a slave even though he had become Christian. (Philemon) In Christ no distinction. In the Church no distinction. But in the world those distinctions remain.

Rip

[POI]

I have. Have you? God favors one ethnic group. If this were not the case, God would have spread His miracles around the globe.....

I think the message of Jesus has been spread around the world, which is why your claim is not true.

You have either misread what I wrote, or misrepresented what I wrote. Please re-read my prior response, entirely, and respond appropriately.