A Question Unanswered, When in Church...

[POI]

During the last year or so of attending church, I was still reluctant to ask probing questions for fear of 'rocking the boat'. In the back of each chair were suggestion/question cards, which anyone could fill out and turn in... I asked the same question, about a dozen times, and never received any type of response.

For debate:

Why would an all knowing and all loving God ever place favor towards one specific race, the Jews?

[POI]

But I do not agree with you.

Oh, but you did. I pointed out where.

I did not say why God made it more difficult for his chosen people.

God, making it easier/harder, based upon attributes the human has no control over, seems more like a human invented concoction. And not something an all-powerful-universe-running-agency would likely introduce.

I am unsure why I am not being understood. I have stated several times that God is not doing so based on accidental properties but based on all the choices they make through all of time.

So it wasn't you, who stated: "He actually made it harder for the descendants of Abraham."?.?.?.?

[AquinasForGod]

But I do not agree with you.

Oh, but you did. I pointed out where.

I did not say why God made it more difficult for his chosen people.

God, making it easier/harder, based upon attributes the human has no control over, seems more like a human invented concoction. And not something an all-powerful-universe-running-agency would likely introduce.

I am unsure why I am not being understood. I have stated several times that God is not doing so based on accidental properties but based on all the choices they make through all of time.

So it wasn't you, who stated: "He actually made it harder for the descendants of Abraham."?.?.?.?

And why? Not based on accidental properties like you keep stating.

[TRANSPONDER]

But I do not agree with you.

Oh, but you did. I pointed out where.

I did not say why God made it more difficult for his chosen people.

God, making it easier/harder, based upon attributes the human has no control over, seems more like a human invented concoction. And not something an all-powerful-universe-running-agency would likely introduce.

I am unsure why I am not being understood. I have stated several times that God is not doing so based on accidental properties but based on all the choices they make through all of time.

So it wasn't you, who stated: "He actually made it harder for the descendants of Abraham."?.?.?.?

And why? Not based on accidental properties like you keep stating.

The point is surely that while God (theoretically) is constructing a first to last plan based on human choices. But that doesn't alter the fact that God had some pro- active choices to make, too, like Hardening Pharaoh's heart and blinding Paul until he converted. It cannot be done to blame it all on man (1) as though God had no part in the plan.

I know, because I've heard it, that it's the best that God could do with mans' choices, quite apart from your being able to dismiss anything problematical as not actually true, like Genesis apparently. I've heard the faithbased escape that the Plan is Good, even with the Bad, because the outcome will be Good. "God knows best" is the ultimate dismissal of the problem, but it is not the ultimate explanation. It is the ultimate evasion.

(1) see the "You send yourself to Hell" apologetic.

[RIP]

[Replying to tam in post #67]

Yes, the term 'Jews' originated with the captivity of the Southern Kingdom by Babylon. But just like it had come to refer to any Iraelites taken in that captivity, be it Benjamin or Levi, so it has come to refer to all who are of Israel. Paul so uses it in (Rom. 3:1-2. "What advantage then hath the Jew? or What profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God."

This does not change the emphasis of (Deut. 7:6) that the Jews, or Israelites, were favored, and chosen "above all people that are upon the face of the earth." You say such a distinction is not racism. Was Jesus recognition of such a distinction racism in (Matt. 15:24-28) where he called the Canaanite woman a dog?

Understand, distinction of races comes from God. And I am not saying racism is wrong. It is not wrong to recognize the race one comes from and do what he can to favor that race. That is right and natural. It doesn't give any the right to do a wrong to another of a different race, but it certainly gives one the right to favor his own race.

God's chosing of the Jews above all peoples and favoring them above all peoples, is not wrong but it certainly today would be considered racism. The distinction He made between Jew/Israel and Gentile is not wrong. In other words, what God does is right. And when He chooses one over the other, it is right. It doesn't bother me if one wants to call it racism.

As to Jews/Israel being black or whatever other race, it is only due to intermarriage which was forbidden. (Deut. 7:2-5) (Josh. 23:12-13) The Jews/Israel were not black. They came from one man, Jacob, who was Syrian. (Deut. 26:5) And Isaacs wife, Rebekah, was Syrian. (Gen. 25:20) All of which connects Abraham and Sarah to Syria.

We are not just talking about 'noting a distinction' between the races. We are talking about choosing and favoring a race above another. We are talking about Jesus calling the Gentiles dogs. Again, I am not saying racism is wrong.

As to the 144,000, yes it was from 12,000 of each tribe of Israel. My point being the distinction between the Jews/Israel and the Gentiles and that God chose and sealed the 144,000 Jews/Israel to preserve them. That God is saving many Gentiles doesn't change that. God didn't choose so many Gentiles to seal and preserve alive during the Tribulation.

Concerning (Acts 16:6-10) and (Gen. 9:24-27) it is not a 'claim'. It is Scrpture. And (Matt.22:14) and (Matt. 7:21-23) changes nothing I have said.

Concerning the Jews/Israel scattered all over the world...how do you know? There is no Jew/Israelite alive today that can prove which tribe of Israel he came from.

I don't know why you think I am trying to 'enslave' anyone. And no, (Is. 58:6) does not negate the slavery that God instituted. (Lev. 25:45-46) But that slavery did end with the end of the Law.

Concerning (Rom. 1:16) and (Acts 17:1-2), yes, because the covenant was with the Jews/Israel. And why was it with the Jews/Israel? Because God chose them above all peoples of the earth and favored them. (Deut. 7:6) The point I have made and am making is that just because we who are part of the Church, in Christ, are one in Christ, does not change the distinctions in race. Just like Paul went to the Jew first and then to the Gentile.

My point in (Philemon) was that Paul still recognized Onesimus as a slave. In other words, just because Onesimus became Christian didn't change his place in the world. Paul sought his freedom, yes. But the fact that he sought his freedom legally, proves my point. In other words, just because we who are Christian are in Christ doesn't change our position in the world. And (Gen. 9:24-27) concerns everyone in the world.

Rip

[1213]

I have. Have you? God favors one ethnic group. If this were not the case, God would have spread His miracles around the globe.....

I think the message of Jesus has been spread around the world, which is why your claim is not true.

You have either misread what I wrote, or misrepresented what I wrote. Please re-read my prior response, entirely, and respond appropriately.

Sorry, didn't you claim that God has not spread His miracles around the globe?

[JehovahsWitness]

Understand, distinction of races comes from God. ...It is not wrong to recognize the race one comes from and do what he can to favor that race. That is right and natural. ... God's chosing of the Jews above all peoples and favoring them above all peoples, is not wrong but it certainly today would be considered racism.

Only by those ignorant of the difference between favor and racism.

RACISM

1: a belief that race is a fundamental determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

God did not favor people because of their physical characteristics nor did he deem them superior to any other national groups because of their physicality, he favored them because he made a promise to do so to their forefather Abraham. This did not mean he has no affection for non-jews or that they would be eternally cut off from divine blessings.

To call God or Jesus racist is is blasphemous. To say they both recognise that various groups have physical and cultural differences, is biblical. To say God created people that would have various physical characteristics is biblical. To suggest he denies people their rights solely based on those characteristics is blasphemmous. To say Jesus came to minister to the Jews is biblically accurate, to suggest this was because he had a hatred for non-Jews, that he did not plan for people with a different skin colour to benefit from his message or his ransom, is inaccurate.

To say God favored the Jews is accurate, to suggest this means God hates non-Jews because of the accident of their birth is blasphemous.

[RIP]

... I am saying that distinctions in race are from God. I am saying that the prophecies from Noah are still in place and have to do with all peoples of the world. Shem receives the blessing. Japheth will enter into those blessings and be blessed with Shem. Ham receives no blessing and his descendants are cursed.


Rip

There is a difference between being able to see differences between national groups and being a racist ; if I'm not mistaken you accused God of racism because He eventually sent missionaries to Europe. But Jesus sent his disciples to'all nations and whether people accept the good news has nothing whatsoever to do with their skin colour or language.

I didn't accuse God of racism. To accuse is to treat as 'wrong'. Others will accuse Him. I am saying what God does is right. If God chooses Israel above all other peoples on earth, then he is right. If any want to call it racism, that's fine with me. It is right.

God forbade Paul twice to go to certain areas. God gave Paul a vision to go to Europe. Because Europe is where Christianity would take root and flourish. Why? Because God was being true to His prophecy to Japheth that he would be blessed with Shem and be enlarged. And Japheth, Europe, white folk, have been blessed and enlarged.

If any want to call that racism, then I say it is right. Have you ever noticed that in all the mass migrations going on, that it is to those countries that Europeans/whites have established. It is because Japheth has been blessed and enlarged by God.

Yes, Jesus sent the disciples to all nations. And the Holy Spirit would later send Paul and his companions to Europe, and Europe would receive it for the reasons I have given.

And, as to skin color, it certainly affected Europe...didn't it? Race is no barrier in one receiving the Gospel. But it certainly plays a role with God as to where a people are as far as Shem, Ham, and Japheth are concerned. Which in turn brings blessings or cursing.

Rip

[JehovahsWitness]

If God chooses Israel above all other peoples on earth, then he is right. If any want to call it racism, that's fine with me.

It should not be fine with you because racism is indemically wrong. Since this is it seems an issue of words what if we use alternatives. Let us isay

Distinction: to acknowledge difference physical characteristics between peoples, in this case let us boil it down to dark skin pigmentation

Favor : accord special treatment for whatever reason one sees fit

Racism : mistreat or treat unjustltly a group because of their darker skin pigmentation

I know this is over simplification but I think it necessary.Now given the above we can conclude biblically that ...

God does not treat people unfairly because they have a dark skin pigmentation.

Race is no barrier in one receiving the Gospel.

GOD favored a lighter skinned race not because of their skin pigmentation but because he made a promise to a faithful man Abraham.

Yes, Jesus sent the disciples to all nations.

Jesus came to procure blessing to all mankind regardless of tbeir skin pigmentation. And while he (Jesus) was charged to minister only to the decendents of Abraham, he commissioned his followers to open that message to people of all skin pigmentations. Whether they accepted or not would come down to exposure to that message and heart condition rather than the shade of their skin.

Agreed?

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PREJUDICE , HATE and ...RACISM

[POI]

But I do not agree with you.

Oh, but you did. I pointed out where.

I did not say why God made it more difficult for his chosen people.

God, making it easier/harder, based upon attributes the human has no control over, seems more like a human invented concoction. And not something an all-powerful-universe-running-agency would likely introduce.

I am unsure why I am not being understood. I have stated several times that God is not doing so based on accidental properties but based on all the choices they make through all of time.

So it wasn't you, who stated: "He actually made it harder for the descendants of Abraham."?.?.?.?

And why? Not based on accidental properties like you keep stating.

If this claimed god places any type of favor at all, (higher or lower), based upon attributes the human cannot control, then this agency is suspect to even exist. Why? This concept appears more man-made alone. We humans do this all the time.

Such a God would be benign to ethnicity, bloodline, etc, and only judge based upon merit/character alone... Ethnicity/bloodline/etc would not even be a factor. Such a God would have the exact same standards for all humans.

[POI]

I have. Have you? God favors one ethnic group. If this were not the case, God would have spread His miracles around the globe.....

I think the message of Jesus has been spread around the world, which is why your claim is not true.

You have either misread what I wrote, or misrepresented what I wrote. Please re-read my prior response, entirely, and respond appropriately.

Sorry, didn't you claim that God has not spread His miracles around the globe?

You are cherry picking, quote miming, and/or taking statements out of context. Thus, I placed it all in bold. So you better understand, I have also added a sentence in red below. To make it easy for you, here is the beef of my last response:

God favors one ethnic group. If this were not the case, God would have spread His miracles around the globe. (Meaning, this god would not have demonstrated his miracles to one region and focused on one ethnicity group in the Bible). God would not have impregnated the same ethnic group female, for which He already favors. He would not have placed favor to Israelites, as the law pertains to slavery practices. Etc etc etc... He seems to have a hankering for "Jews". The reason I raise this point, is because I doubt an all powerful, all present, and all loving god would apply this type of behavior....

It's more likely this YHWH character is yet another human god invention, just like the countless other 'gods', who just so happen to also mimic their own traditions.