Inerrant......or is it?

[Ozzy_O]

Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Luke 1:5-6
5 In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. 6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly

Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Everyone isn't a sinner
There are those who are capable of obeying God, that's what scripture says.


So why did Jesus have to die?

(I'm not interested in you posting someone's opinion from a commentary somewhere)

[1213]

Apparently because people are evil blood thirsty murderers who want everyone good to die.

This is patently ridiculous to me. Please show that you speak the truth.

I say apparently... ...because there was no other reason for them to kill Jesus. Jesus had not done anything to deserve death penalty.

But, what I said was not very accurate, because:

Jesus asked him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good, except one-God.
Luke 18:19

I should have said "relatively good". And I think that applies to other people also. Perhaps also Martin Luther King, president Kennedy could be counted also in this case, all though I don't think they are as good as Jesus.

[JehovahsWitness]

Everyone isn't a sinner

Biblically everyone is a sinner as in, all humans fail to meet God standard of perfection. The bible is quite catagoric on this

1 JOHN 1:8 ESV

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us

ROMANS 3:23

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

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[TRANSPONDER]

Apparently because people are evil blood thirsty murderers who want everyone good to die.

This is patently ridiculous to me. Please show that you speak the truth.

I say apparently... ...because there was no other reason for them to kill Jesus. Jesus had not done anything to deserve death penalty.

But, what I said was not very accurate, because:

Jesus asked him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good, except one-God.
Luke 18:19

I should have said "relatively good". And I think that applies to other people also. Perhaps also Martin Luther King, president Kennedy could be counted also in this case, all though I don't think they are as good as Jesus.

Quite apart from the Real reason Jesus was killed (namely the ONE charge that is never hinted at in the entire Sanhedrin hearing and trial under Pilate) but is in fact effectively the charge pinned on the cross, You are arguing from an assumption, Jesus good, Priests bad. See it from their point of view. They are priests of God, carrying out his Law and rites as instructed in his Book. Then someone bowls up with a bunch of provincial fishermen accusing the priests of corruption and even undermining God's laws. They may have seen it as their duty to eliminate this scamp and his rabble. It's only because you are on his side and not theirs that you assume they are the baddies and they had no reason to have Jesus dealt with.

[Ozzy_O]

Biblically everyone is a sinner as in, all humans fail to meet God standard of perfection. The bible is quite catagoric on this

Is it now .... ?

Luke 1:5-6
5 In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. 6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly

Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Was the Holy Spirit wrong ? Was Jesus lying to you? He said there are righteous people, so does Luke

[JehovahsWitness]

Biblically everyone is a sinner as in, all humans fail to meet God standard of perfection. The bible is quite catagoric on this

Is it now .... ?

Luke 1:5-6
5 In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. 6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly

Mark 2:17
When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

Was the Holy Spirit wrong ? Was Jesus lying to you? He said there are righteous people, so does Luke

So? So what !? Is the word "sinless" in any of those passages passages? Unless you can see the words "without sin" I cannot see the relevance of those scriptures.



JW

[Ozzy_O]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #15]

You ar correct

So the answer is you can still sin and be righteous. You can still be counted as righteous by God even if you are a sinner, even before Jesus died.....

[TRANSPONDER]

But Jesus was Son of God; they weren't. He was going to be raised because he was God (unless you don't believe that,of course). Because Jesus was raised is no guarantee they would be.

Bible doesn't say he Jesus was raised because he was God. According to the Bible, there is only one true God. And it was God who raised Jesus from death (Heb. 13:20). But, I agree with that it is not a guarantee that everyone else is raised. However, it is the reason why disciples of Jesus became fearless.

Ok. I suppose one could argue that the disciples at least after they had the Holy spirit breathed on them (John) or after Pentecost (Luke) understood that they had to potential to forgive sins, heal the sick and raise the dead, even though they hadn't been able to do it before as they hadn't enough Faith. And Jesus had promised them that he would prepare thrones for all 12 of them (1) so (If you believe a word of the Gospels) one could argue that they did believe that Jesus' resurrection would be for them, too.

I just have to ask, what is your basis for thinking that the disciples of Jesus became fearless? I don't mean recorded martyrdoms of Christians, but the 12, specifically? I suppose that you will reference Acts.

(1) including Judas, since of course, without him, the sacrifice to save from sin would not have worked.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #15]

You ar correct

So the answer is you can still sin and be righteous. You can still be counted as righteous by God even if you are a sinner, even before Jesus died.....

I agree. The idea that Everyone is a sinner from birth and worthy of death because of that double damned apple apparently. Mary, mother of God and Queen of heaven may have been sinless, but probably not. However, Paul put his finger on it - Abraham was righteous, because of his Faith in God. That did not make him sinless, but Righteous enough to be saved. It did not make him sinless, nor any of the Righteous who believed in Jesus'resurrection (rather than God and His laws) without sin, but Righteios enough to be saved.

That does rather raise the headscratcher of Zechariah High Priest wasn't it? Who was nevertheless 'righteous', and therefore worthy to be saved, even though working within the corrupt Priesthood ought to have made him evil by default. But then then, Luke had Arimathea, a rich man, and a Ruler (synagogue president and [Pharisee] Sanhedrin member who had apparently abstained from condemning Jesus at the trial was apparently also a 'good and Righteous man'(23.50) despite being part of the corrupt, venial and wicked Teachers of the law, (Matthew 3.7) who would all end up on a bonfire of weeds.

But, like i often say, Who said any of this had to make sense? .

cue: "It makes sense to God, if not to us."

[1213]

...
I just have to ask, what is your basis for thinking that the disciples of Jesus became fearless? I don't mean recorded martyrdoms of Christians, but the 12, specifically? I suppose that you will reference Acts.

(1) including Judas, since of course, without him, the sacrifice to save from sin would not have worked.

After Jesus was captured:
...Then all the disciples left him, and fled.
Matt. 26:56

And after Jesus was raised from death:
They worshiped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.
Luke 24:52-53

Also, Jesus forgave sins before his death, therefore his death was not needed to save from sin.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

[TRANSPONDER]

...
I just have to ask, what is your basis for thinking that the disciples of Jesus became fearless? I don't mean recorded martyrdoms of Christians, but the 12, specifically? I suppose that you will reference Acts.

(1) including Judas, since of course, without him, the sacrifice to save from sin would not have worked.

After Jesus was captured:
...Then all the disciples left him, and fled.
Matt. 26:56

And after Jesus was raised from death:
They worshiped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.
Luke 24:52-53

That doesn't in itself do it. Yes, before the resurrection they would run from a threat, but just praising God in the temple doesn't mean they suddenly became fearless. Where does it say that they were threatened with arrest or harm and refused to back down? It doesn't until you get to Acts.

And you are surely wrong here

Also, Jesus forgave sins before his death, therefore his death was not needed to save from sin.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Jesus forgiving sins before his death does not constitute a blanket removal of sins. And in fact the crucifixion doesn't do that either, we are still just as sinful but Jesusfaith enables a way of escape from that. I don't see how you could have misunderstood that.