Rules for thee, but not for Me....did Jesus really pay the price?

[Ozzy_O]

Some balk at the idea of eternal damnation. Is eternal hell fair? How can an eternity of punishment be just recompense for only one lifetime of human sin? Particularly if a person was generally decent, how is it fair that living apart from God for only 70 to 100 years results in eternity in hell?

A man sins; some say he is born in sin deserving of eternal hell.

God is fair and just, so He HAS TO insist on full payment for sin.

So a judge sentences you to life in prison as punishment for your crime; for reasons unknown, the judges son agrees to take your place and serve the sentence. Everyone is astonished and celebrates and worships the judge's son for doing such a wonderful deed.

However, after only three days in jail, the judge tells his son, that's ok, you can go, YOU don't have the serve the full sentence; however, had you or I gone to jail, we would rot and die in prison as a fair and just punishment for our crime.

Jesus knew he wasn't gonna stay dead forever and knew he wouldn't be tormented in hell for eternity.

Did Jesus really "pay the price" and take the punishment that sinners deserve?

[JoeyKnothead]

According to this site 117 billion people have inhabited Earth. Divide this by the 144,000 seats available in heaven and the odds are 1 in 812,500 that a person will get a chance at one of them. However, further research says that such a chance only applies to Christians, which means that billions upon billions of people never had a chance in the first place. So my calculations need some serious revision. Sorry about that.

Pretty thing says I'm one in a million. I always feared asking what she means about that

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to Ozzy_O in post #1]

God doesn't will that anyone remains in hell, but he will not force them to love him. It is our choice to choose or reject God, to love him or not, to accept whether he incarnated and died for us or not. If those in hell continue to reject God, then it is their choice.

He won't force you to love him, or accept his puny sacrificial act, but if you don't he will just let you spend eternity suffering in hell. What a sad and pathetic specimen of a deity.

You choose to remain in hell. He is not going to force you to leave. You have the choice and power to leave.

Am I missing something, because that sounds like complete and utter nonsense to me? How did I end up in hell and what do I have to do in order to leave?

You must love God. Accept that he incarnated died and rose for your sins. WHich obviously means to walk in his will, i.e. do what he wants you to do.

Some people for whatever reason don't wish to do this, even if they know God is real.

Matt Dillahunty in his discussion with Trent Horn said that even if he knew God was real doesn't mean he would follow him. He said he has issues with him.

[Shem Yoshi]

A lot of them have stories of leaving their bodies and seeing things that only someone could see if they were out of their own body.

Experiments have been done to test that and as far as I can tell none have been verified to date. All we have are unsupported anecdotes.

Sorry but the medical journal of a peer reviewed article that I linked in post 41 suggest otherwise

Considering NDEs from both a medical perspective and logically, it should not be possible for unconscious people to often report highly lucid experiences that are clear and logically structured. Most NDErs report supernormal consciousness at the time of their NDEs.

Unconscious people do not make any of these reports. Recovered patients do that, so it is impossible to know in what specific period of time the experiences actually occurred and the memories formed in the brain. Another issue is that all of the experiences are self-reported descriptions. We have no way to test the accuracy of the descriptions pr what other factors may have influenced them. The only valid conclusion is that some people have these experiences, but what exactly they are and what causes them is very much open to conjecture. Concluding that there is an afterlife is a very huge leap of faith.

Well you could take it a step further and question your entire existence if you wish. Maybe there is no reliable sources at all. like Cartesian Skepticism says, Global doubt.

We've been here before. Trying to claim anecdotal evidence as good as verified evidence. Unexplained occurrences being used to try to prove God, the Bible or a soul. So far none have done any of it. the NDE effect is still being researched and it is far from clear that an actual leaving the body is involved at all, let alone a vision of an afterlife.

Even if it was, so, exactly, what? It would be interesting to know that we have a soul and there is an afterlife, but then, how would that alter the way we live, consider organised religions or how we argue here? Hint, the existence of a soul or an afterlife does not prove a god, never mind a particular one.

I'm not dismissing NDE's or OBE's, but they really don't get us anywhere in terms of the religion debate.

And of course, if we opt for doubting everything and considering that there are no reliable sources, that would make further debate pointless.

If there really was a soul and an afterlife, scientific materialism is totally undermined

[William]

[Replying to Shem Yoshi in post #63]

If there really was a soul and an afterlife, scientific materialism is totally undermined

How do you figure that to being the case?

[Miles]

One chance in 812,500? ...

I cannot respond since I have no idea what this is referring to.


Sorry,


JEHOVAHS WITNESS

According to this site 117 billion people have inhabited Earth. Divide this by the 144,000 seats available in heaven and the odds are 1 in 812,500 that a person will get a chance at one of them.

Are you under the impresssion that the bible limits the number of people that will get everlasting life to 144,000 places in heaven?

Only because I've read:

"Jehovah's Witnesses believe salvation is a gift from God attained by being part of "God's organization" and putting faith in Jesus' ransom sacrifice. They do not believe in predestination or eternal security. They believe in different forms of resurrection for two groups of Christians: that the 144,000 members of the anointed will be rulers in heaven and that "the other sheep" or "the great crowd" will live forever on earth.
source

If so that is not a biblical teaching. I think most people that post on this forum know that Jehovahs Witnesses do not believe heaven is the only place individuals will be afforded the chance to live forever,

Yup, but heaven is limited to the 144,000. Is this not true?

.

[Shem Yoshi]

[Replying to Shem Yoshi in post #63]

If there really was a soul and an afterlife, scientific materialism is totally undermined

How do you figure that to being the case?

Materialist is the belief that only material exists, that is to say only the material make up of the body exists, the soul would not exist.

[Shem Yoshi]

A lot of them have stories of leaving their bodies and seeing things that only someone could see if they were out of their own body.

Experiments have been done to test that and as far as I can tell none have been verified to date. All we have are unsupported anecdotes.

Sorry but the medical journal of a peer reviewed article that I linked in post 41 suggest otherwise

Considering NDEs from both a medical perspective and logically, it should not be possible for unconscious people to often report highly lucid experiences that are clear and logically structured. Most NDErs report supernormal consciousness at the time of their NDEs.

Unconscious people do not make any of these reports. Recovered patients do that, so it is impossible to know in what specific period of time the experiences actually occurred and the memories formed in the brain. Another issue is that all of the experiences are self-reported descriptions. We have no way to test the accuracy of the descriptions pr what other factors may have influenced them. The only valid conclusion is that some people have these experiences, but what exactly they are and what causes them is very much open to conjecture. Concluding that there is an afterlife is a very huge leap of faith.

Well you could take it a step further and question your entire existence if you wish. Maybe there is no reliable sources at all. like Cartesian Skepticism says, Global doubt.

We've been here before. Trying to claim anecdotal evidence as good as verified evidence. Unexplained occurrences being used to try to prove God, the Bible or a soul. So far none have done any of it. the NDE effect is still being researched and it is far from clear that an actual leaving the body is involved at all, let alone a vision of an afterlife.

actually according to this definition:

"Anecdotal evidence is usually based on individual experiences or observations, as distinct from probabilistic evidence that gives estimates of how likely something is to occur based on experience with large numbers of people."

The research link I shared gives probabilistic evidence.

None the less, anyone can undermine any specific evidence they want, people do it all the time, Desecrate undermined every piece of evidence period, coming to conclude the only thing that can be sure is that he doubted, and therefor "I think therefor I am". How can you establish any evidence can be taken seriously? Do you only undermine that which you disagree with, but take evdience you agree with?

No one has answered this question in my thread yet
viewtopic.php?p=1103711#p1103711

[JehovahsWitness]

Yup, but heaven is limited to the 144,000. Is this not true?

.

Yes, that is true. Whatnis also true is that I have been through our exchange and the word HEAVEN was not mentioned once. Please read ....

for the righteous the prospect of being brouht back to life after having died and subsequently living forever is reward of great value.

One chance in 812,500?

And since your maths was in response to my comment about living forever it was either inaccurate and/or misleading. Is that not true?

inaccurate: the maths does not take into account the millions or billions that will gain everlasting life on a paradise earth

Misleading : implying that 144,000 are the ONLY ones that will be accorded everlasting life.

Would you like to talk about heaven? If so just let me know, I'll certainly consider obliging.



JW

[Miles]

Yup, but heaven is limited to the 144,000. Is this not true?

.

Yes, that is true.

for the righteous the prospect of being brouht back to life after having died and subsequently living forever is reward of great value.

One chance in 812,500?

And since your maths was in response to my comment about living forever it was either inaccurate and/or misleading. Is that not true?

Absolutely inaccurate as well as misleading. My apologies.

.

[JehovahsWitness]

Yup, but heaven is limited to the 144,000. Is this not true?

.

Yes, that is true.

for the righteous the prospect of being brouht back to life after having died and subsequently living forever is reward of great value.

One chance in 812,500?

And since your maths was in response to my comment about living forever it was either inaccurate and/or misleading. Is that not true?

Absolutely inaccurate as well as misleading. My apologies.

.

No problem. Would you like to discuss further the Jehovahs Witness belief on everlasting life?




JW