Rules for thee, but not for Me....did Jesus really pay the price?

[Ozzy_O]

Some balk at the idea of eternal damnation. Is eternal hell fair? How can an eternity of punishment be just recompense for only one lifetime of human sin? Particularly if a person was generally decent, how is it fair that living apart from God for only 70 to 100 years results in eternity in hell?

A man sins; some say he is born in sin deserving of eternal hell.

God is fair and just, so He HAS TO insist on full payment for sin.

So a judge sentences you to life in prison as punishment for your crime; for reasons unknown, the judges son agrees to take your place and serve the sentence. Everyone is astonished and celebrates and worships the judge's son for doing such a wonderful deed.

However, after only three days in jail, the judge tells his son, that's ok, you can go, YOU don't have the serve the full sentence; however, had you or I gone to jail, we would rot and die in prison as a fair and just punishment for our crime.

Jesus knew he wasn't gonna stay dead forever and knew he wouldn't be tormented in hell for eternity.

Did Jesus really "pay the price" and take the punishment that sinners deserve?

[Miles]

Yup, but heaven is limited to the 144,000. Is this not true?

.

Yes, that is true.

for the righteous the prospect of being brouht back to life after having died and subsequently living forever is reward of great value.

One chance in 812,500?

And since your maths was in response to my comment about living forever it was either inaccurate and/or misleading. Is that not true?

Absolutely inaccurate as well as misleading. My apologies.

.

No problem. Would you like to discuss further the Jehovahs Witness belief on everlasting life?

Thank you, but I'm good.

.

[brunumb]

[Replying to Ozzy_O in post #1]

God doesn't will that anyone remains in hell, but he will not force them to love him. It is our choice to choose or reject God, to love him or not, to accept whether he incarnated and died for us or not. If those in hell continue to reject God, then it is their choice.

He won't force you to love him, or accept his puny sacrificial act, but if you don't he will just let you spend eternity suffering in hell. What a sad and pathetic specimen of a deity.

You choose to remain in hell. He is not going to force you to leave. You have the choice and power to leave.

Am I missing something, because that sounds like complete and utter nonsense to me? How did I end up in hell and what do I have to do in order to leave?

You must love God. Accept that he incarnated died and rose for your sins. WHich obviously means to walk in his will, i.e. do what he wants you to do.

Some people for whatever reason don't wish to do this, even if they know God is real.

Matt Dillahunty in his discussion with Trent Horn said that even if he knew God was real doesn't mean he would follow him. He said he has issues with him.

So, if you can't love God he is going to send you to hell and it is your choice. What a total crock that is.

[William]

[Replying to brunumb in post #72]

So, if you can't love God he is going to send you to hell and it is your choice. What a total crock that is.

From the evidence re the reports re OOBE/NDEs and Astral Exploration [things mindfully experienced] the indication is that one is not 'sent' anywhere but that one creates their own experience.

Example:

It is not really a question of 'not believing in a god-concept so one will be punished by that god-concept' although it is apparent that one's beliefs do have influence on outcomes re how that next level unfolds...so if one believes in that type of thing, one will create the experience for oneself, even if that involves being 'sent' somewhere by a 'god'.

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to brunumb in post #72]

So, if you can't love God he is going to send you to hell and it is your choice. What a total crock that is.

From the evidence re the reports re OOBE/NDEs and Astral Exploration [things mindfully experienced] the indication is that one is not 'sent' anywhere but that one creates their own experience.

Example:

It is not really a question of 'not believing in a god-concept so one will be punished by that god-concept' although it is apparent that one's beliefs do have influence on outcomes re how that next level unfolds...so if one believes in that type of thing, one will create the experience for oneself, even if that involves being 'sent' somewhere by a 'god'.

That's certainly a viable hypotheses, given the data that there is right now.

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to brunumb in post #72]

So, if you can't love God he is going to send you to hell and it is your choice. What a total crock that is.

Hell is not a place you are sent to. It is a state you exist in without God. If you choose to remain without God, you will remain in the state of hell. Look at all the suffering around you.

[JoeyKnothead]

[Replying to brunumb in post #72]

So, if you can't love God he is going to send you to hell and it is your choice. What a total crock that is.

Hell is not a place you are sent to. It is a state you exist in without God. If you choose to remain without God, you will remain in the state of hell. Look at all the suffering around you.

I look at the suffering around me and notice many Christians are the cause, and perpetuation, of it.

[Miles]

[Replying to brunumb in post #72]

So, if you can't love God he is going to send you to hell and it is your choice. What a total crock that is.

Hell is not a place you are sent to. It is a state you exist in without God.

Believe whatever you like, but the Bible points to hell as being an actual place, especially when it talks about one's body being in hell, or being thrown into hell, or just going into or to hell. AND that hell is fire.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 5:22
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

Mark 9:43-48
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

Luke 12:5
But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew 5:30
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Matthew 18:9
And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

James 3:6
And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell.

And when one reads

Matthew 13:50
50 They will throw the evil people into the place of fire. There the people will cry and grind their teeth with pain.”

which is obviously about Hell, a place of fire where people will cry and grind their teeth with pain, it has to be a real or at least not just some "state."


In any case, just where in the Bible does it say "Hell is not a place you are sent to,"? ..(I do grant that whatever state you may exist in god is unlikely to be with you---but who knows? I'm sure he has visiting privileges.)

.

[JehovahsWitness]

.... the Bible points to hell as being an actual place, especially when it talks about one's body being in hell, or being thrown into hell, or just going into or to hell. AND that hell is fire.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and bodyin hell.

Bible "hell" is symbolic of total destruction , NOT post death pain.

Any reference in the bible in this regard to "FIRE" is entirely SYMBOLIC of destruction and subsequence non-existence.

Scriptural support

- Matthew 10:28 ....the soul can be destroyed in hell
- Eccl 9:5 ... the dead know nothing

[Miles]

[Replying to brunumb in post #72]

So, if you can't love God he is going to send you to hell and it is your choice. What a total crock that is.

Hell is not a place you are sent to. It is a state you exist in without God.

Believe whatever you like, but the Bible points to hell as being an actual place, especially when it talks about one's body being in hell, or being thrown into hell, or just going into or to hell. AND that hell is fire.

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 5:22
But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

Mark 9:43-48
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, ‘where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

Luke 12:5
But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!

Matthew 16:18
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Matthew 5:30
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Matthew 18:9
And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

James 3:6
And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell.

And when one reads

Matthew 13:50
50 They will throw the evil people into the place of fire. There the people will cry and grind their teeth with pain.”

which is obviously about Hell, a place of fire where people will cry and grind their teeth with pain, it has to be a real or at least not just some "state."


In any case, just where in the Bible does it say "Hell is not a place you are sent to,"? ..(I do grant that whatever state you may exist in god is unlikely to be with you---but who knows? I'm sure he has visiting privileges.)

.

Bible "hell" is symbolic of total destruvtion, not post death consciouse torment.

Chapter and verse(s) would really help out your claim here. Otherwise, that's all it amounts to, an unsupported claim.

.

[JehovahsWitness]

Chapter and verse(s) would really help out your claim here. Otherwise, that's all it amounts to, an unsupported claim.

.

I'll give you more than that, I'll give you chapters, verses and GREEK

TRANSLATIONS

Many bible translations have translated 3 DIFFERENT words (Tartarus, Ghehenna, sheol (hebrew)/hades (greek)) indescrimately as "hell" and this has added to reader confusion.

GEHENNA Are Jesus words at Matthew 5:22 (GEHENNA) to be taken literally?

Gehenna was during the time of Jesus, the location of the city rubbish dump just outside Jerusalem. Obviously Jesus was using an illustration not suggesting the wicked would literally end up in a rubbish dump. Gehenna (translated at "hell") was simply a symbol, not of eternal torment but of death without the hope of a resurrection.

Jewish scholar David Kimhi wrote of ghenna:

• "It is a place . . . adjoining Jerusalem, and it is a loathsome place, and they throw there unclean things and carcasses. Also there was a continual fire there to burn the unclean things and the bones of the carcasses. Hence, the judgment of the wicked ones is called parabolically Gehinnom"
  
  
  
  If, as this Jewish scholar suggests, Gehenna was used for the disposal of refuse and carcasses of those deemed unworthy of burial, fire would be a suitable means of eliminating such refuse. Note: dead carcasses, not live people, are consumed in Gehenna, this place is thus NOT symbolic of eternal torment. What the fire did not consume, the maggots would thus Isaiahs words are a fitting picture of the final end (not the torment) of God’s enemies!
  
  A PHYSICAL REMINDER
  
  Often in the poetic language of metaphors in scripture fire is mentioned not as a source of agony but as a permanent reminder of God's adverse judgement of total annihilation. NOTE Isaiah 66:24
  

  ISAIAH 66:24
  
  And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh. 

  Rather than passages linking fire with the agony of the wicked, we see it linked here to a witness or a testimony for the living. We see the living as observing the "dead bodies" of rebels as a repugnant reminder not for the dead but for those in the physical living flesh and blood world ("all flesh"). Worms, present in decomposing bodies enforces the idea not of perpetual agony of the punished but perpetual evidence for the living.
  
  
  
  ETERNAL FIRE NOT ETERNAL SUFFERING
  
  • Jude, speaking of God's judgement/punishment of Sodom and Gomorrah spoke of "eternal fire". Obviously the literal fire rained down from heaven has long since ceased burning so, in what way was the fire still burning? As mentioned above what *is* permanent is the {quote} "plain warning to all" (Good News Translation) /the example, the permanent evidence of divine judgement. What is notable in its absence is any notion of agony or torture.
    

    [Jude 1:7]
    
    "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" KJV

  
  PURIFYING BY FIRE
  • Some use passages that likens fire as purifier to justify Catholic dogma such as that of "puragtory" (a word never mentioned in scripture) claiming that the "souls" of dead people must suffer unspeakable agony to be purged of their sins and gain access to heaven. However such teaching is contrary to biblical teachings because 1#) The bible teaches that at death a person ceases to be able to think or feel and #2) the bible identifies only the blood of Jesus as atoning for one's sins, never the personal agony of torture.
    

    NOTE While fire is sometimes used in scripture to represent the trials and tribulations suffered by the faithful, it is always, without exception used in relation to THE LIVING and not the dead and never is there any indication maintaining integrity under trials (likened to fire) and improving the quality of ones faith , atones for sin or replaces the ransom of Christs blood.

  
  SYMBOLISM
  
  Mark 9:43
  And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell [GEHENNA], to the unquenchable fire.
  
  
  
  In Mark 9:43 Jesus literally named the area he was talking about ; a location his listeners would have been well familiar with called GEHENNA . According to the Encyclopaedia Britannica "Gehenna ... was made a garbage centre". However, when one references something literal in a way that is impossible, then this is a good indication of metaphor, figure of speech or symbolism.
  

  To illustrate: An exasperated father tells his drug addicted son "Your life's going down the toilet" Whilst toilets are real, one cannot be used to flush down a life , since life is a condition. So real toiilet becomes a symbol/ metaphoric toilet representing that which is useless or ruined

  The literal fire in Gehenna was certainly not "unquenchable" and the context is obviously hyperbolic so it is only reasonable to conclude Jesus was using the location symbolically to make a point similar to the father in my illustration.
  
  QUESTION Is FIRE used figuratively to represent the literal torture of humans after they die?
  
  ANSWER No, since the bible indicates humans, like animals, cease to exist when their physical bodies decompose, it would be impossible to cause them pain after they die. [/color] Fire is used figuratively in the bible to represent many things including love, (Ca 8:6), passion (Ro 1:27; 1Co 7:9), strong emotion (Lu 24:32; 2Co 11:29), zeal or enthusiasm (Jer 20:9) ... Indeed even Jehovah (YHWH) himself is described as being a consuming fire, but NEVER is fire used as a symbol of torture of those that have physically died.

FIRE : PERMANENT ELIMINATION OR CONTINUAL TORTURE OF THE DEAD?

• Due to religious indoctrination and the near total dominance of the pagan religious dogma of the torture of a mythical "immortal soul" (an expression never once used in the bible), when many see the word "fire" associated with divine judgment, they automatically think that the idea being conveyed is of perpetual pain/ anguise, however more often than not fire used in the bible as a symbol of total and complete annialation (compare Mat 3: 10, 12). Since physical fire leaves little more than ashes in its wake, it, rather than death by strangulation, drowning or a violent blow to the head, is used as a fitting symbol of the punishment of total and permanent non-existence with no hope of a resurrection.

HE BIBLE TEACHES BOTH GOOD AND BAD PEOPLE GO TO HELL not to be tormented but to "wait" inconscious, inactive, inexistent (except in the memory of those that love them) until God "recreates" them (resurrection).

GOOD MAN JOB SAID ...
" Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me IN HELL, and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a. time when thou wilt remember me? " -- Job 14: 13 (Catholic Douay Version)

GOOD MAN JACOB SAID....
"And all his children being gathered together to comfort their father in his sorrow, he would not receive comfort, but said: I will go down to my son INTO HELL, mourning. " -- Jacob (Genesis 37: 35 - Catholic Douay Version)

ABOUT GOOD MAN KING DAVID...
"Therefore my heart is glad and my glory rejoiceth; my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou will not leave my soul in HELL..." -- Good King David's Words (see Psalms 16: 10 King James Version)


THE BIBLE ASSOCIATES DEATH NOT WITH CONSCIOUS ACTIVITY OR PAIN BUT WITH INACTIVITY AND UNCONSCIOUSNESS

Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all" -- New World Translation

Ecclesiastes 9:10 "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in THE GRAVE, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom." -- New International Version (©1984)


Douay-Rheims Bible: Whatsoever thy hand is able to do, do it earnestly: for neither work, nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge shall be in HELL, whither thou art hastening.

Eccl. 9:5, 10: "The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in SHEOL,* the place to which you are going." (*"Sheol," AS, RS, NE, JB; "THE GRAVE," KJ, Kx; "HELL," Dy; "the world of the dead," TEV.)

Psalms 146: 3, 4: "... the son of earthling man, [...] His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground;In that day his thoughts do perish. "

Ezekiel 18:4 The soul that is sinning - it itself will die.

In poetic speech, Job associates death with inexistence and inactivity he likened being dead to evaporated water = inexistent; a dried river = inexistent; a man that lies down = inactivity and sleep= inacitivity

Job 14:11-15 NASB wrote:
" As water evaporates from the sea/And a river becomes parched and dried up, So man lies down and does not rise/Until the heavens are no longer/He will not awake nor be aroused out of his SLEEP.

TEETH GNASHING: FOR THE LIVING OR FOR THE DEAD?

Favoured passages of those that wish to use the bible to support the teaching of eternal torture of the dead, are Jesus references to "weeping and gnashing of teeth". The phrase "weeping/wailing and gnashing of teeth" occurs 7 times in the Christian Greek scriptures. 6 times in Matthew and 1 time in Luke. Does the context of any of these occurance impose or even imply that this occurs after death in SHEOL (the common grave of mankind)? In short did Jesus ever say the dead will "gnash their teeth"?

Let's look at the 7 instances Jesus used the expression and see what conclusions can reasonably be drawn. Firstly, what are the commonalities?

• All the Jesus uses of this expression are done within the context of illustrations and none arise from a discussion of the condition of the dead. In Matthew 8, Jesus is commending a gentile for his faith and lamenting on his fellow Israelites lack of faith, and in chapter 13 he's discussing the work of preaching the God's kingdom message (while alive on earth). In Matthew 22 he is dealing with the invitation God extends to be in the kingdom and in 25nthe commission to work hard for kingdom interests before his (Christ's) return for inspection
  

  While they are all connected in some way with judgment and subsequent punishment, none indicate that punishment is execution, indeed the word, death or killed is never mentioned in connection with "gnashing of teeth", they are all however RELATED to a person's reaction to witnessing his lost privileges going to others. That reaction being anger, regret and frustration.

.

One other common factor in all the occurrences relate to sorting out and dismissjng those not meeting a required standard. In short the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is a reaction, not to being subjected to some physical punishment, but rather a reaction to being rejected.

- In Matthew 8:12 and Luke 13:28 Jesus in figurative language contrasts an invitation to recline at the (heavenly) "table of Abraham" with "outer darkness" where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth".

- In Matthew 13:42 , 50 Jesus is giving an illustrations likening the wicked to weeds (42) and bad fish (50). that are rejected and thrown into a firey furnace where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth". While the righteous "shine" or are collected together in reciprocals.

- Matthew 22:13 is the illustration of the Wedding feast where those not suitably dressed are thrown out of the reception.

-Matthew 24 and 25 Jesus gives illustrations contrasting good slaves with bad. Hardworking slaves are given further funds (talents) to trade with, while a "lazy slave" loses those he had and is thrown out of the house (Matthew 25:30 ). An "evil slave" who mistreat his fellow slaves is punished with being assigned a place with hypocrite ( Matthew 24:51.

A SIGN OF FRUSTRATION AND ANGER OR A REATION TO BEING PHYSICALLY TORTURED?

• Note some bible commentaries on the expression:
  

  gnash your teeth - to show that you are angry or annoyed about something bad that you can do nothing to stop
  https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dic ... your-teeth

  The weeping and gnashing of teeth is symbolic of utter despair, regret, anger, and uncontrollable rage
  https://www.patheos.com/blogs/christian ... the-bible/

  Indeed discerning readers will ask themselves if annoyance even rage is a natural reaction while being subjected to unspeakable torture.

ALWAYS USED TO REPRESENT THE FEELINGS OF THE LIVING

Jesus would have been familiar with the Hebrew usage of this expression. Note that in the Hebrew bible "gnashing teeth" is never used to describe the actions if the dead or indeed to describe abject agony as a result of being subject to some kind of physical torture.

[Psa 35:16 KJV] 16 With hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth.

[Psa 35:16 AMP] Like godless jesters at a feast, They gnashed at me with their teeth [in malice].

Note how Christian bible writers used the expression; it is the individual gnashing their teeth that is furious, angry, hurt (not hurt in regretful repentance but deeply affected) and frustrated.

[Act 7:54 NIV] When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him

The newly organized Christians were announcing to the world that the religious leaders they were not God's people any more. The reaction of being thus accused was anger was so profound they were described as grinding or gnashing their teeth, not because the Christians were beating them, hurting them physically or inflicting any physical punishment but because they did not like what they were hearing. their pain was entirely emotional and none of them were dead at the time.

CONCLUSION "Weeping and gnashing of teeth" is not biblically linked to some kind of "afterlife" of unfathomable physical agony, but is traditionally used to describe the feelings of anger and frustration while very much alive. In this light and given that Jesus never explicitly linked the expression to dead people, it seems reasonable to conclude he was describing the reaction of wicked people (while alive in this physical world) to being rejected and judged as unworthy to some kind of reward or privilege. Indeed in this light the parable of the rich man and Lazarus might well be better understood.

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

BIBLE "HELL", THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD and ...HELLFIRE TORTURE DEBUNKED