Christianity's Biggest Problem Yet?

[POI]

Below is a 20 minute video. For the ones who opt not to watch, I'll start with the following question? (Which may then lead to many others, as this is a fairly new concept of thought for me)....

Why does YHWH allow for so much animal suffering? Before you Christians answer, I trust you are already aware of this guy's counter points?

[AquinasForGod]

[Replying to POI in post #300]

I responded to animal suffering already

I watched the video. Not bad. I do not see this as Christianities biggest problem, though. No doubt, humans suffering from natural causes like tornados is a much harder problem.

There needs to be an ecosystem and predators play a role in that. All good stuff from Craig. However, I have my own reason for my animals suffer, or at least appear to suffer. That is the first part that needs to be addressed.

Craig is right here. Animals do not suffer the same way humans do because they do not have an internal awareness like we do. I would take this even farther, though. How do we know for sure that other humans are actually suffering? We can only go by their actions and words. We cannot know what it is like to be them. We don't have a supernatural power to feel what they are feeling. The same is true for animals. How do we know they are suffering? They cannot express it in words, so we only have their reactions to go by.

They reactions show me that they have a much higher pain threshold than we humans do. Brand a cow with a hot piece of metal and it goes mooo, then goes about its day. Brand a human with hot metal and he screams, then continues to act in pain for hours to come. He might even cry.

I must wonder, though, do animals suffer at all? They act like they are suffering, but I cannot know they are actually suffering because I am not having their experience. It could be that they only act as if suffering, but why?

As theists, we have to accept divine hiddenness. I am not going to get into why God chooses to mostly hide right now, but we accept he has good reasons. It is the divine plan that humans suffer. You can read why here - https://www.freelymeditate.com/single-p ... -the-world

Thus we have divine hiddenness and humans must suffer. If we happened to live in such a word where humans suffered yet animals did not, we would know something wasn't right. Why are we the only animals to suffer? We would start to think that the world is clearly designed for us. If God wishes to remain mostly hidden, and humans must suffer, then animals must at least appear to suffer, otherwise, God cannot remain mostly hidden.

If animals actually suffer, there could be some greater good that comes from it, such as animals learn via their limited suffering how to be the best they can be so they are ready for a heavenly life as animals.

[brunumb]

There needs to be an ecosystem and predators play a role in that.

But if God designed and created everything then there are options where ecosystems without predators are possible. The web of life involves a flow of energy that organisms require to live. Plants get their energy directly from the sun. God could have created animals with systems that do likewise making the killing and eating of other animals unnecessary. One of the benefits of omnipotence.

[brunumb]

As theists, we have to accept divine hiddenness. I am not going to get into why God chooses to mostly hide right now, but we accept he has good reasons.

The good reasons for divine hiddenness are a necessary product of human invention to cover the fact that God does not actually exist.

[brunumb]

I must wonder, though, do animals suffer at all? They act like they are suffering, but I cannot know they are actually suffering because I am not having their experience. It could be that they only act as if suffering, but why?

So you observe animals displaying all the signs of suffering and wonder if they are just putting on an act. What is your suggested answer to the question of 'why'? Maybe humans don't suffer either and they are all just putting on the same act.

[Shem Yoshi]

Isnt it great that we can go through anything at all, and come out better people because of it? I mean I guess it all comes down to your outlook, but we can make it through anything and everything with our head up high... It's a good thing.

In fact David even wrote "verily every man at his best state is altogether vanity."... And Jesus said the "first is last and the last is first".

In our suffering we are lifted up by God. Hallelujah

You keep avoiding fundamental questions. You also forget this topic is about Christianity specifically.

1. Can an animal experience theodicy?
2. Can an animal go to heaven?

Assuming the answers to those questions are <no>, being you have avoided them like the plague about three times now, then it is a big problem.

We know why humans "suffer", as it relates to the Christian argument. An animal's "suffering", however, is pointless. So why in the heck would God subject them to it?

well i don't have an answer to 1 or 2. But i don't need to have an answer. There is no reason God shouldnt allow suffering.

[brunumb]

There is no reason God shouldnt allow suffering.

How about love and empathy for other sentient creatures.

[Shem Yoshi]

There is no reason God shouldnt allow suffering.

How about love and empathy for other sentient creatures.

love and empathy wouldnt exists without its counter parts... What if the grace of God is sufficient?

[brunumb]

There is no reason God shouldnt allow suffering.

How about love and empathy for other sentient creatures.

love and empathy wouldnt exists without its counter parts... What if the grace of God is sufficient?

First, you said there was no reason. I gave you one.
Second, why wouldn't love and empathy exist without their counterparts?

[AquinasForGod]

I must wonder, though, do animals suffer at all? They act like they are suffering, but I cannot know they are actually suffering because I am not having their experience. It could be that they only act as if suffering, but why?

So you observe animals displaying all the signs of suffering and wonder if they are just putting on an act. What is your suggested answer to the question of 'why'? Maybe humans don't suffer either and they are all just putting on the same act.

People have the benefit of talking to me about their suffering.

[POI]

I watched the video. Not bad. I do not see this as Christianities biggest problem, though. No doubt, humans suffering from natural causes like tornados is a much harder problem.

Do you have an answer there as well? Or, is it one of those head-scratchers? Inquiring minds would like to know? Maybe create a new thread for discussion, as it really is apples and oranges, in compared to this presented problem.

1) There needs to be an ecosystem and predators play a role in that. All good stuff from Craig. 2) However, I have my own reason for my animals suffer, 3) or at least appear to suffer. That is the first part that needs to be addressed.

1) Are you sure you actually watched the entire video? (Predation) is the best solution, really?

2) Okay, why do animals really suffer?

3) They are faking their suffering?

Craig is right here. Animals do not suffer the same way humans do because they do not have an internal awareness like we do.

Again, did you even watch the video? He responds to this... What were his responses and why are they off base?

How do we know they are suffering? They cannot express it in words, so we only have their reactions to go by.

Did you actually watch the video? If so, you would have some answers here. Your 'defense' here, is to argue for "solipsism". And if this is your argument, then all bets are off... But maybe that's how you wiggle out of the argument?

They reactions show me that they have a much higher pain threshold than we humans do. Brand a cow with a hot piece of metal and it goes mooo, then goes about its day. Brand a human with hot metal and he screams, then continues to act in pain for hours to come. He might even cry.

This is the same in humans. Some are "whinny babies", and some are "tuff". Same for cows --> (http://petkeen.com/do-cows-cry-tears/)

I must wonder, though, do animals suffer at all? They act like they are suffering, but I cannot know they are actually suffering because I am not having their experience. It could be that they only act as if suffering, but why?

I tell you what... Let's test this out. If you have a pet, or someone you know has a pet, try "torturing" that pet and see if it is really aware of the actual subjected torture, or not.... Let me know how it goes?

As theists, we have to accept divine hiddenness.

You have to, because it's a great way to (explain) why god is not likely actually there.

I am not going to get into why God chooses to mostly hide right now, but we accept he has good reasons.

I'm pretty sure we exchanged about this before. And I don't recall any good reasons.

Thus we have divine hiddenness and humans must suffer. If we happened to live in such a word where humans suffered yet animals did not, we would know something wasn't right. Why are we the only animals to suffer? We would start to think that the world is clearly designed for us. If God wishes to remain mostly hidden, and humans must suffer, then animals must at least appear to suffer, otherwise, God cannot remain mostly hidden.

Wait a minute, do animals actually suffer or not?

And your argument here, is that the animals have to suffer too, so we do not ask questions? Well, I'm asking questions anyways. Why do animals suffer if they cannot achieve theodicy and/or choose to follow/worship?

If animals actually suffer, there could be some greater good that comes from it, such as animals learn via their limited suffering how to be the best they can be so they are ready for a heavenly life as animals.

The Bible says animals go to heaven too?