Where's God?

[POI]

Does he pop up in my dreams? Is he the one whom produces my goose-bumps? Is He the one giving me my "moral compass"? Is he only experienced during deep meditation? If I have enough faith, will he appear to me? But seriously. Where is he? I was a Christian for decades. I earnestly prayed for him to reach me, to no avail.

For debate: Why have I not felt his presence?

A) I never tried hard enough; lack faith
B) He does not want to reveal Himself to me (yet)
C) Evil is blocking the request(s)
D) I'm too dumb to realize he's reaching me
E) He's not really there at all <- Current conclusion

Do not answer yet. This topic has spawned from another unrelated topic. I decided to devote this large topic to itself. Below are some premises:

P1) does god exist? (dunno)
P2) does god want a relationship with all, especially the ones who seek him (apparently so)
P3) is god capable of communicating (apparently so)
P4) can god communicate his message in a way in which the recipient could no longer deny (apparently so)
P5) have I asked for this communication earnestly and repetitively (YES)
P6) does the Bible state god answers the call to all who seek him (YES)

At best, god has opted not to contact me YET. And this would be after decades of actively seeking him. Without any emotion, I'm logically left with 2 options.

A) God is not really there <- Current conclusion.
B) God is not adhering to his promise (yet).

[POI]

Your story doesn't make sense. If you were a believer then you would not be trying to communicate with God or waiting for him to communicate with you.

Your response is quite intriguing.

Believers actually believe God is real.

Thanks for the tautology. I did too. Even more than I believed in Santa Claus. It was only after decades, that I started to doubt god was on the other end. It began with me thinking god is listening to me, but does not want to answer (yet). Maybe he thought I was not ready or something.... Tried as I might, over and over and over again, still no response. I placed forth excuse after excuse after excuse, as to why god opted not to respond in any "perceivable" way? After a few decades, I started to doubt. Meaning, he is either ignoring me, or maybe I'm still not communicating right, as people all around me did and do claim Jesus "speaks" to them. I diligently ventured forth, determined to get some type of tangible response, still, to no avail....

After a long enough time had passed, I started to doubt he is even there. Maybe I've been talking to myself all along. But I still tried. This pretty much brings us to present day, via the OP. So what is it:

A) I never tried hard enough; lack faith
B) He STILL does not want to reveal Himself to me (yet)
C) Evil is blocking the request(s)
D) I'm too dumb to realize he's reaching me
E) He's not really there at all <- Current conclusion

You clearly did not believe

And there we have it. I'm confused or a liar.

you would not be trying to get God to talk to you and when he did not you ran away.

I trust more clarity has been provided now, from my above response?

Why did you expect God to communicate with you? Did you think maybe you were a prophet?

No silly. I'm just another dude. Just a dude surrounded by believers who claim they get some type of response/feedback from Jesus. Why is He skipping me?

Further, didn't you state, in another exchange, that you get some type of "feedback/other" from "God/Jesus/other", via "meditation/other"???

[PolytheistWitch]

[Replying to brunumb in post #41]

Nope, don't not need to. There are plenty of religions and spiritual practices that pretty much back that comment up. If you don't want to engage in that conversation then don't but I see no reason to prove anything to you when I'm simply discussing known concepts in religion and spirituality when discussing my own spiritual practice. I'm not converting you, you can accept what I'm saying and incorporate it into the conversation or you can demand I prove it before you engage further at which point we're done.

[JoeyKnothead]

[Replying to brunumb in post #41]

Nope, don't not need to. There are plenty of religions and spiritual practices that pretty much back that comment up. If you don't want to engage in that conversation then don't but I see no reason to prove anything to you when I'm simply discussing known concepts in religion and spirituality when discussing my own spiritual practice. I'm not converting you, you can accept what I'm saying and incorporate it into the conversation or you can demand I prove it before you engage further at which point we're done.

It's a bit odd so many theists would enter into a debate just to get all fussed when asked to prove their claims.

How might we ever find the truth if we ain't allowed to seek it?

I get that some anecdotal evidence can shed light on an issue, but to turn one's nose up to a request for evidence, in a debate, seems odd as a three legged duck.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to brunumb in post #41]

Nope, don't not need to. There are plenty of religions and spiritual practices that pretty much back that comment up. If you don't want to engage in that conversation then don't but I see no reason to prove anything to you when I'm simply discussing known concepts in religion and spirituality when discussing my own spiritual practice. I'm not converting you, you can accept what I'm saying and incorporate it into the conversation or you can demand I prove it before you engage further at which point we're done.

It's a bit odd so many theists would enter into a debate just to get all fussed when asked to prove their claims.

How might we ever find the truth if we ain't allowed to seek it?

I get that some anecdotal evidence can shed light on an issue, but to turn one's nose up to a request for evidence, in a debate, seems odd as a three legged duck.

How is one supposed to "prove" an experience in one's own spiritual practice? I've personally experienced many strange things which I can't prove to anyone and don't claim to be able to. The reality of an experience doesn't hinge on being able to prove it to someone who didn't have the same experience, and no one who admits upfront that they can't prove something is under any obligation to try to do so.

[JoeyKnothead]

[Replying to brunumb in post #41]

Nope, don't not need to. There are plenty of religions and spiritual practices that pretty much back that comment up. If you don't want to engage in that conversation then don't but I see no reason to prove anything to you when I'm simply discussing known concepts in religion and spirituality when discussing my own spiritual practice. I'm not converting you, you can accept what I'm saying and incorporate it into the conversation or you can demand I prove it before you engage further at which point we're done.

It's a bit odd so many theists would enter into a debate just to get all fussed when asked to prove their claims.

How might we ever find the truth if we ain't allowed to seek it?

I get that some anecdotal evidence can shed light on an issue, but to turn one's nose up to a request for evidence, in a debate, seems odd as a three legged duck.

How is one supposed to "prove" an experience in one's own spiritual practice? I've personally experienced many strange things which I can't prove to anyone and don't claim to be able to. The reality of an experience doesn't hinge on being able to prove it to someone who didn't have the same experience, and no one who admits upfront that they can't prove something is under any obligation to try to do so.

In debate we can all make all kinds of claims, and present all kinds of carryings on. Unless we're willing to present something -anything- in support of those claims, we're just clapping with one hand.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to Shem Yoshi in post #21]

You should stay faithful my friend.

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[brunumb]

[Replying to brunumb in post #41]

Nope, don't not need to. There are plenty of religions and spiritual practices that pretty much back that comment up. If you don't want to engage in that conversation then don't but I see no reason to prove anything to you when I'm simply discussing known concepts in religion and spirituality when discussing my own spiritual practice. I'm not converting you, you can accept what I'm saying and incorporate it into the conversation or you can demand I prove it before you engage further at which point we're done.

Or, there is no spiritual realm with spirit beings and people simply attribute certain experiences to those things due to their conditioning and biases. If it was clear cut we would never need these endless excuses and dodges for not being able to demonstrate the truth of what is being claimed. Of course we're done. You have nothing of value to contribute if all it amounts to is unsupported claims.

[brunumb]

How is one supposed to "prove" an experience in one's own spiritual practice? I've personally experienced many strange things which I can't prove to anyone and don't claim to be able to. The reality of an experience doesn't hinge on being able to prove it to someone who didn't have the same experience, and no one who admits upfront that they can't prove something is under any obligation to try to do so.

But are you willing to share the experience and explain how you interpreted it? At least the other party can see where you are coming from and make up their own mind about the experience. 'Proof' is not necessary or what is even required. I am trying to understand what convinces others about things like the spiritual realm.

[PolytheistWitch]

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #53]

Religion is a relationship experience between a person and a deity. Show me evidence when a person says I love my spouse or better yet my spouse loves me. You can't, you can't use the fact that you're married, you can't use the fact they wear a wedding ring because none of that actually proves what the person is feeling on the inside. And that is exactly what religion is. Unless I'm trying to convert you I don't have to prove anything. And if the only way for you to debate religion is for us to show proof then you need to just not debate religion cuz you know for a fact it's never going to happen. It's an experience based belief system. What is sad is that you can't even discuss religion or theism using the principles that already exist in those systems. You demand proof because you know you no longer have to engage in the discussion. So don't pretend you're here for anything other than to witness your atheism to others.

[PolytheistWitch]

[Replying to brunumb in post #57]

You have no idea if that does or does not exist that's a guess on your part. And there's no reason for me to not trust my own experiences. I understand that you've been raised to not trust your own thoughts and feelings I was not raised that way. And if there's nothing here that you're going to accept from a theist then you should not even be here to discuss and debate religion because all you're doing is witnessing your atheism and funny us theist aren't allowed to do that.