Leaving church

[Wootah]

Church means gathering or group. So it doesn't have to be answered by just religious people.

This is how to test your own church. Not by leaving and seeing how they react but when people do leave or want to leave how does the church react?

How do you react when people leave you? Are you a cult of one that hates when people leave you or won't let them? Any experiences of trying to leave a cult to share

[JehovahsWitness]

If someone wanted to jump out of a lifeboat what would be the reasonable balanced logical reaction?

• While that would be their choice, a reasonable reaction from the others would be to do all they could to dissuade them since they are gathered together on the boat to stay alive?

• If they cannot, then they would sadly met the person jump overboard and make a swim for it.

• If the fellow passengers observed the person subsequently drown or be eaten by sharks, they no doubt would be convinced of the folly of such a decision and know they must do all they can to stay together in the boat.

FOR TRUE CHRISTIANS THE TRUE RELIGION ISNT A SOCIAL CLUB IT IS THE MEANS BY WHICH GOD IS SAVING PEOPLE FROM IMMENENT DESTRUCTION

1 PETER 2:21

Baptism, which corresponds to this, is also now saving you (not by the removing of the filth of the flesh, but by the request to God for a good conscience), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

IT IS BIBLICALLY VIEWED AS ESSENTIAL TRUE CHRISTIANS STICK TOGETHER

HEBREWS 10:24, 25

And let us consider one another so as to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking our meeting together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you see the day drawing near

CONCLUSION People's religious choices should always be respected and nobody should be pressured or cohersed to stay in a religion they are fully convinced is not true. That said, it is reasonable, logical and balanced reaction for those that believed they are where Gods want them to be, to try and convince those they love not to make foolish or hasty decisions , especially if those decisions risks them losing their lives.

NOTE This is not to be confused with actions taken when someone attempts to "overturn the boat" or drag others overboard with them against their will : APOSTACY



JEHOVAH'S WITNESS


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[1213]

....
This is how to test your own church. Not by leaving and seeing how they react but when people do leave or want to leave how does the church react?

How do you react when people leave you? Are you a cult of one that hates when people leave you or won't let them? Any experiences of trying to leave a cult to share

I think people should be free, also to leave. However, those people who hate when other people leave, could actually care more about the leaving people than those who don't hate it. The reason is, if you would think you have something good and leaving it would be bad, and if you would care about people, you would be sorry, if they would lose the good thing, you could even hate that they lose it, because you care about them and don't want any harm for them. Obviously it may be that one is wrong about the harm, but it still would be out of love and mean that one cares about the people.

But, in some cases it can also be from bad reasons. For example cult leader could hate it because it would mean he loses power. In that case it would not be good.

And my point is, hating people leaving is not necessary on itself bad or wrong. The reason why one hates it, can be wrong. And still, even if one would be right, I think he should allow people to be free.

[TRANSPONDER]

If someone wanted to jump out of a lifeboat what would be the reasonable balanced logical reaction?

• While that would be their choice, a reasonable reaction from the others would be to do all they could to dissuade them since they are gathered together on the boat to stay alive?

• If they cannot, then they would sadly met the person jump overboard and make a swim for it.

• If the fellow passengers observed the person subsequently drown or be eaten by sharks, they no doubt would be convinced of the folly of such a decision and know they must do all they can to stay together in the boat.

FOR TRUE CHRISTIANS THE TRUE RELIGION ISNT A SOCIAL CLUB IT IS THE MEANS BY WHICH GOD IS SAVING PEOPLE FROM IMMENENT DESTRUCTION

1 PETER 2:21

Baptism, which corresponds to this, is also now saving you (not by the removing of the filth of the flesh, but by the request to God for a good conscience), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

IT IS BIBLICALLY VIEWED AS ESSENTIAL TRUE CHRISTIANS STICK TOGETHER IN THE SAC EST PLACE POSSIBLE

HEBREWS 10:24, 25

And let us consider one another so as to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking our meeting together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you see the day drawing near

CONCLUSION People's religious choices should always be respected and nobody should be pressured or cohersed to stay in a religion they are fully convinced is not true. That said, it is reasonable, logical and balanced reaction for those that believed they are where Gods want them to be, to try and convince those they love not to make foolish or hasty decisions , especially if those decisions risks them losing their lives.

NOTE This is not to be confused with actions taken when someone attempts to "overturn the boat" or drag others overboard with them against their will : APOSTACY

I was going to stay out of this as it's a matter for individual conscience and the individual Christian take on doctrine. I just wanted to comment on (as an aside) the analogy of the lifeboat, and how Christian apologetics analogies are like almost all Christian apologetics - flawed because they are faithbased. That is, assuming they are right as a given.

The analogy is assuming that staying in the lifeboat (the church) is the right choice. But one could equally use the analogy of the burning building. "Don't jump out of the window - you could hurt yourself". But he survives with a broken leg and everyone in the building burns.

The analogy assumes an outcome as a given and it's a cheat (1). So we have this choice. People are in a church and they see it's going to the bad. I won't go into details, but they see it. The realisation or at least moral instinct tells them to get out. The realisation probably doesn't go as far as knowing that churches are man made communities (not to say cults) and preachers are peddlers of their own opinions, not God's appointed prophets. Leaving a Church is the tip of the deconstruction iceberg where further down the slippery iceberg slope (flogging the analogy to bits) they realise it's a shake oil scam and a cult, but a lot may simply find another one to join that fits better with their own personal opinions or preferences.

And that's all from me. Back to you people presenting your personal preferences as God's true Church and good luck to you.

(1) I have been astonished at how extensive the abuse of the analogy as evidence is, and how little recognised it is.

[Ross]

When I left the Jehovah's Witness religion because I had learned it all, experienced it all, lived it all, and needed to move on in my life, they almost begged me to reconsider. Visits from the circuit overseer and stuff. This was back in the 1980's.

However five years later, after my marriage to my Witness wife eventually had run it's inevitable sad course of events, we parted and I began another relationship.

They then disfellowshipped me, five years after I had left.

This shows they view you as their property for want of a better word.

[Wootah]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #2]

Well that seems extreme. In my area there are plenty of good churches. Why do you regard leaving your church as jumping out of a lifeboat?

do you still socialise with people that leave your church for another one?

[Tcg]

If someone wanted to jump out of a lifeboat what would be the reasonable balanced logical reaction?

Given that you are undoubtedly referring to JWs as that lifeboat, then yes, leaving JWism is a reasonable balanced logical reaction given its repeated failure to protect those who most need protection:

Historic $40 Million Settlement Awarded to Hawaii Childhood Abuse Victim in Jehovah's Witness Church Case

In a landmark ruling, a victim of childhood sexual abuse, known only as "N.D.," has been awarded a groundbreaking $40 million settlement in a lawsuit against the Makaha Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses and Keneth L. Apana, an "Elder" within the congregation.

As reported by KITV, The lawsuit, filed in 2020, recounted the traumatic experience of "N.D.," who alleged that she was raped and sexually abused by Apana during sleepovers at his house in 1992, when she was 12. The abuse inflicted immense emotional and psychological scars on the young victim, leaving her with lasting pain and suffering. The court findings, in this case, highlighted Apana's role as a sexual predator, preying on minor girls for over two decades.

The verdict not only holds Apana accountable for his actions but also serves as a warning that institutions must be proactive in safeguarding their members, especially children and vulnerable individuals. With the abuse within their ranks exposed, the Jehovah's Witnesses church is now compelled to address the systemic failures that allowed such abuse to continue unchecked for years."

https://www.shaheengordon.com/blog/2023 ... ngregation.

The "lifeboat" is unsafe and should be abandoned.


Tcg

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #2]

Well that seems extreme. ...

Well its the biblical position ( scriptural support provided). Everyone is free to conform or not as they see fit. Do you hate it that people that do not view the biblical position as extreme? Would you feel the need to try and persuade them to see religion as you do ?

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

GOD, CHRISTIANITY and ... RELIGIOUS TRUTH

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #2]

Well that seems extreme. ...

Well its the biblical position ( scriptural support provided). Everyone is free to conform or not as they see fit. Do you hate it that people that do not view the biblical position as extreme? Would you feel the need to try and persuade them to see religion as you do ?

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

GOD, CHRISTIANITY and ... RELIGIOUS TRUTH

I don't know about our pal Wootah but I do, and 'all who hold with me'. We think and conclude that Religion is a mistake and a con, unwittingly, and often a scam and exploitation, often knowingly. It is especially dangerous when it becomes politicized.

That's why we do this. It matters.

[Wootah]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #2]

Well that seems extreme. ...

Well its the biblical position ( scriptural support provided). Everyone is free to conform or not as they see fit. Do you hate it that people that do not view the biblical position as extreme? Would you feel the need to try and persuade them to see religion as you do ?

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

GOD, CHRISTIANITY and ... RELIGIOUS TRUTH

I don't know about our pal Wootah but I do, and 'all who hold with me'. We think and conclude that Religion is a mistake and a con, unwittingly, and often a scam and exploitation, often knowingly. It is especially dangerous when it becomes politicized.

That's why we do this. It matters.

Well I think that if you can't leave a group, whether a church or some friends then you were in a cult. Church actually means gathering in the bible so I am also including secular groups. For instance I read many people who were left wing as soon as they developed a right wing thought found their friends hating on them. They were in a cult.