Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[POI]

if you think I ignore something from the Bible, please tell what it is.

It does not matter when we do. I've brought up Romans 3 and Romans 4 many times now. These two chapters express that righteousness = faith, and nothing more. Which would mean answer B).

[boatsnguitars]

...People being saved from a flood, and earthquake or an aircraft crash is NOT the same as being saved by Christian faith as per Paul Bible or Christianity. In fact Christianity doctrinally would say that Noah isn't saved (from sin - death) as he didn't believe in Jesus....

"Christian" doctrine can be wrong. I personally want to be loyal to God and his word, not to "Christian" doctrines.

So Allah? Why just choose the Christian Bible?

[1213]

...People being saved from a flood, and earthquake or an aircraft crash is NOT the same as being saved by Christian faith as per Paul Bible or Christianity. In fact Christianity doctrinally would say that Noah isn't saved (from sin - death) as he didn't believe in Jesus....

"Christian" doctrine can be wrong. I personally want to be loyal to God and his word, not to "Christian" doctrines.

So Allah? Why just choose the Christian Bible?

Quran says that people should believe Jesus. So, what other choice I have than to believe Bible?

"...The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah... ...believe in Allah and His messengers..."
Quran 4:171, https://legacy.quran.com/4/171

[1213]

if you think I ignore something from the Bible, please tell what it is.

It does not matter when we do. I've brought up Romans 3 and Romans 4 many times now. These two chapters express that righteousness = faith, and nothing more. Which would mean answer B).

I have not ignored them. Those don't say righteousness = faith.

[1213]

...You arrogantly assume your translation is the right one....

Please tell, why it is not right? I need some good reasons, before I can think something is not right.

...However, when I ask Christians what it takes to reach Heaven, arguably one of the most important topics, the Bible is convoluted - even among the earnest. ...

To me, Bible is very clear in that. The problems comes when people try to fit together their own interpretations, instead of reading directly what the Bible tells, without adding own meanings into it.

[1213]

I believe it was pointed out before. Paul citing Abraham's belief being Righteousness. You rightly pointed out it read that he believed what God said, but that implies the belief in God to start with It was not his actions that would save him but the belief.

Paul doesn't say belief=righteousness. Belief was counted for righteousness means that the belief showed that he had right understanding. And when it is shown that person has right understanding, he can be counted righteous. Belief, works and faith are signs of persons state of mind. If they show person has right state of mind, he can be counted righteous.

This was the case with the Law - it would not save, but stop people from straying into sinful actions. The Belief in God was the thing that would save them and Paul switched that to belief in Jesus which would also wipe out the sin to start with. But you had to believe in Jesus. Just being good would not save non - Christians.

I think it is inaccurate to say that it is belief that saves. It is God who saves. And God saves those who are righteous. And if person is righteous, it shows in his actions. And one action that can tell about righteousness is that person believes Jesus.

Of course this is not set out as such in the Bible, other than in quotes like 'none come to the father but by me' and one can then interpret that as being doing the good things he said to do. Anyone can pick a quote to suit themselves.

They are not contradictory ideas. The point is, Jesus is the gatekeeper. This means, he decides who will enter. And he can decide that those who are righteous enter, as he says in the Bible. And if person is righteous, he does righteous actions, which also believing Jesus is.

Faith and works only tell is person righteous. And if person is righteous, then God saves him.

Isn't that what I was saying all along? Godfaith (and the right kind)(mis what saves. The works (it seems) are only the outward manifestation of that God/Jesus faith and they do not save in themselves. If that were the case and only good deeds saved, I...no, I mean We...would only need a sound moral code (1) and God (of any religion, or none) would save those who did the best, never mind whether they beleived in this or that religion or none.

Again, it is God who saves. Person can't do anything to save himself. To be saved, one must be righteous. And if person is righteous, it will show in his actions. If person doesn't have righteous actions, he is not righteous and will not be saved. But the saving is not any reward of doing the right thing, it is a gift for those who have the wisdom of the just that makes them to do right things.

[boatsnguitars]

...People being saved from a flood, and earthquake or an aircraft crash is NOT the same as being saved by Christian faith as per Paul Bible or Christianity. In fact Christianity doctrinally would say that Noah isn't saved (from sin - death) as he didn't believe in Jesus....

"Christian" doctrine can be wrong. I personally want to be loyal to God and his word, not to "Christian" doctrines.

So Allah? Why just choose the Christian Bible?

Quran says that people should believe Jesus. So, what other choice I have than to believe Bible?

"...The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah... ...believe in Allah and His messengers..."
Quran 4:171, https://legacy.quran.com/4/171

Are you suggesting one ought to believe the Koran? What about all other religious texts?
(You do have a marvelous talent to miss the point, BTW)

[POI]

if you think I ignore something from the Bible, please tell what it is.

It does not matter when we do. I've brought up Romans 3 and Romans 4 many times now. These two chapters express that righteousness = faith, and nothing more. Which would mean answer B).

I have not ignored them. Those don't say righteousness = faith.

Yes they do. You just ignore it.

[POI]

...You arrogantly assume your translation is the right one....

Please tell, why it is not right? I need some good reasons, before I can think something is not right.

I already did, several times. But you just ignore it.

...However, when I ask Christians what it takes to reach Heaven, arguably one of the most important topics, the Bible is convoluted - even among the earnest. ...

To me, Bible is very clear in that. The problems comes when people try to fit together their own interpretations, instead of reading directly what the Bible tells, without adding own meanings into it.

Then everyone here is doing that, but you

[TRANSPONDER]

I believe it was pointed out before. Paul citing Abraham's belief being Righteousness. You rightly pointed out it read that he believed what God said, but that implies the belief in God to start with It was not his actions that would save him but the belief.

Paul doesn't say belief=righteousness. Belief was counted for righteousness means that the belief showed that he had right understanding. And when it is shown that person has right understanding, he can be counted righteous. Belief, works and faith are signs of persons state of mind. If they show person has right state of mind, he can be counted righteous.

This was the case with the Law - it would not save, but stop people from straying into sinful actions. The Belief in God was the thing that would save them and Paul switched that to belief in Jesus which would also wipe out the sin to start with. But you had to believe in Jesus. Just being good would not save non - Christians.

I think it is inaccurate to say that it is belief that saves. It is God who saves. And God saves those who are righteous. And if person is righteous, it shows in his actions. And one action that can tell about righteousness is that person believes Jesus.

Of course this is not set out as such in the Bible, other than in quotes like 'none come to the father but by me' and one can then interpret that as being doing the good things he said to do. Anyone can pick a quote to suit themselves.

They are not contradictory ideas. The point is, Jesus is the gatekeeper. This means, he decides who will enter. And he can decide that those who are righteous enter, as he says in the Bible. And if person is righteous, he does righteous actions, which also believing Jesus is.

Faith and works only tell is person righteous. And if person is righteous, then God saves him.

Isn't that what I was saying all along? Godfaith (and the right kind)(mis what saves. The works (it seems) are only the outward manifestation of that God/Jesus faith and they do not save in themselves. If that were the case and only good deeds saved, I...no, I mean We...would only need a sound moral code (1) and God (of any religion, or none) would save those who did the best, never mind whether they beleived in this or that religion or none.

Again, it is God who saves. Person can't do anything to save himself. To be saved, one must be righteous. And if person is righteous, it will show in his actions. If person doesn't have righteous actions, he is not righteous and will not be saved. But the saving is not any reward of doing the right thing, it is a gift for those who have the wisdom of the just that makes them to do right things.

This is playing with words and arguing round in circles. Is 'Right Understanding' is Faith or works, tell me. Isn't "God saves "Faith in God and his ability to save (whether through Jesus or not) and not through works? Everything you say supports my case, not yours and you just use vague wording to try to cover up what is actually meant.

I already said that you run into trouble if you claim that 'Righteous' somehow supports Christianity, even the particular version you have devised. People who do the good ought to be Righteous whether they have a religion or not. If they did not do the good despite being Christian (or claiming to be) then Righteousness is a secular matter, not religious.

You can hardly claim that Christian belief makes people good or better in general than people of other faiths or none. Not even if you pull the 'No real Christian' trick. Your waffle about the wisdom of the just is more smokescreening of the issue.
does salvation depend on Faith or works.
Is 'wisdom of the just' being able to follow human moral law or codes or following God's orders?
Are the actions of some (claimed) Christians always just and righteous because they are doing what God says?

You can't cite the Bible because nobody now says that slavery is ok, or a number of other nasty OT things. It is self - deception to engage human moral judgement and thus separate God's orders from those not of God, in the case of some Christians if not in your case.

It inevitably comes down to Christian faith is what saves because of Jesus on the cross, not because of Deeds; and it is a lie and fabrication to claim that Christian Faith will always have Christians (or those who claim to be) doing the good because of what you refer to as righteous judgement. Christians (or some who claimed to be) have done wrong in the past and are doing wrong now.

Righteous judgement is better based on secular morals, not the Bible.

And if you throw 'Christians' who do the wrong (see the Livonian crusade) under the bus, you are applying human morals and pretending they come from God.

This is an effort to stop the endless circle of faithbased delusion and fiddling of the evidence.

No great hopes, though But as usual, it is for others to get a few thoughts to consider,. Your coming to reasons has to come from you.