Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[POI]

1) And if faith does not compel you to works, how is it truly faith?

2) As for the conclusion that people are worshiping a god of chaos... well, I guess that depends upon what god one is worshiping. The God and Father of Christ is not a God of chaos. 3) But many people aren't listening to Him; because many people aren't turning to or listening to the One He sent us: His Son (the Light). 4) So yes, you will get various answers to your questions... 5) though not as much variety as you have implied (at least not on this matter). 6) Grace is not in conflict with faith, especially considering that faith is itself a gift; and faith will naturally compel works (or it might not have been faith to begin with).

7) Grace and faith and works are all connected.

8) I don't think you will find many people who will disagree with that.

The purpose of this thread is to demonstrate that it is not as clear as you would want to think it is. The reason being, is that the God of the Bible is the purveyor of confusion.

1) What about the Unitarians alone? They believe in universal salvation. This means grace alone.
2) People cannot even agree if Jesus is God, let alone what you bring up.
3) Which ones are, and which ones are not? Is there a way to tell?
4) Yes, this is my point exactly! And all think they are right, including you. I happily admit confusion.
5) See point 1).
6) See point 1).
7) Not necessarily.
8) Without going outside one 'denomination' alone, I have already found 800,000.

[1213]

I think you have given alternative interpretations that don't fit to what is actually said in the Bible.

Here's another one. "15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16

It's clear that if someone has proselytized the messages to you, and you then believe and are baptized, you are saved. That's all! So the answer is B) or D) here, depending on if you consider baptism a 'work' or not?. But it says absolutely NOTHIING about being "righteous" here. ...

1. Mark 16 doesn't tell the reason why person is saved.
2. Being saved is not necessary the same as getting ticket to heaven.
3. It can be said that, if one believes Jesus, it shows person is righteous.

[TRANSPONDER]

I think you have given alternative interpretations that don't fit to what is actually said in the Bible.

Here's another one. "15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16

It's clear that if someone has proselytized the messages to you, and you then believe and are baptized, you are saved. That's all! So the answer is B) or D) here, depending on if you consider baptism a 'work' or not?. But it says absolutely NOTHIING about being "righteous" here. ...

1. Mark 16 doesn't tell the reason why person is saved.
2. Being saved is not necessary the same as getting ticket to heaven.
3. It can be said that, if one believes Jesus, it shows person is righteous.

Sure it does. 'Whoever believes'. Belief is the operative thing. If it was anything that saved, it would have said so. It is inventing stuff to even suggest that something else saved, even as a possibility, never mind proposing it as a valid dogma.

It is irrelevant that being saved is not necessarily a guarantee of heaven. The point is that what is necessary to even have a shot at getting to heaven, If it was just good deeds, any religion would do.

So we get to this claim that somehow believing in Jesus makes a person Righteous, that is as i recall judging justly and generally behaving well. Apart from it not being clear from the NT that deeds rather than Belief is what saves, it is not clear that Jesus Faith somehow makes people behave better. That raises the question of people who behaved badly and used Christian faith as the justification and whether a person wo behaved as well as a Christian also hot Saved if they were not a Christian.

You have to address and not evade these two points to make your case stick.

[POI]

I think you have given alternative interpretations that don't fit to what is actually said in the Bible.

Here's another one. "15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16

It's clear that if someone has proselytized the messages to you, and you then believe and are baptized, you are saved. That's all! So the answer is B) or D) here, depending on if you consider baptism a 'work' or not?. But it says absolutely NOTHIING about being "righteous" here. ...

1. Mark 16 doesn't tell the reason why person is saved.
2. Being saved is not necessary the same as getting ticket to heaven.
3. It can be said that, if one believes Jesus, it shows person is righteous.

1. Yes it does. "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,"
2. Where exactly do 'saved' people go, that do not go to Heaven?
3. And righteousness is the same as faith, which means your answer is B) and/or D).

[POI]

Christians, imagine you are God for a moment. You are the creator of humans, and you really want a permanent relationship with your creation. You know most humans are either illiterate, stupid, and/or easily blinded/distracted by unwanted forces (natural and supernatural alike). You know there exists these collections of writings we later call the Bible, which apparently gives a road map on how to achieve eternal bliss - (or go to Heaven). You also know, because you are God, that most people will not achieve it. Many of which, however, try as they might. Would you, imagining yourself as God again, be satisfied with what the Bible conveys about going to Heaven? I'll answer, as a fellow imaginer... No. I would not be satisfied. If I know the majority of my creation was, (again), illiterate, dumb, and/or easily distracted. I would sure as heck make sure the written word was very easy to follow, and not leave any room for interpretation. You know, like all here agree that God does not like murder, theft, trespassing, etc. And YET, we have countless denominations, all earnest in their attempt to translate what the Bible says. In essence, I blame God. He could provide any tool for the task and chose this one? All we have is the Bible. And as we have discovered, none of you fine folks agree. If you were God, I bet you would have devised a better plan of attack. What'za think?

[1213]

I think you have given alternative interpretations that don't fit to what is actually said in the Bible.

Here's another one. "15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16

It's clear that if someone has proselytized the messages to you, and you then believe and are baptized, you are saved. That's all! So the answer is B) or D) here, depending on if you consider baptism a 'work' or not?. But it says absolutely NOTHIING about being "righteous" here. ...

1. Mark 16 doesn't tell the reason why person is saved.
2. Being saved is not necessary the same as getting ticket to heaven.
3. It can be said that, if one believes Jesus, it shows person is righteous.

1. Yes it does. "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,"
2. Where exactly do 'saved' people go, that do not go to Heaven?
3. And righteousness is the same as faith, which means your answer is B) and/or D).

1. It tells such person will be saved, not the reason for that, if we are literal and remain just what is said in the Bible.
2. Saved can mean that person's sin has been forgiven and so he has been saved from the judgment that would come because of the sin. If person continues in sin after that, it was not useful and person probably doesn't go to heaven.
3. There is no Biblical scripture that says so. Why do you think I should replace Bible with your doctrines?

[1213]

...That raises the question of people who behaved badly and used Christian faith as the justification and whether a person wo behaved as well as a Christian also hot Saved if they were not a Christian...

The key is righteousness. Even if person would not know anything about Jesus, if he shows by his actions that he is righteous, he can have the eternal life that is promised only for righteous. But, even then, it is not the reward for right actions, it is a gift for those who are righteous. And I believe it is a gift for them, because they know how to live well and therefore are worthy of the life.

for as many as without law did sin, without law also shall perish, and as many as did sin in law, through law shall be judged, for not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law shall be declared righteous: -- For, when nations that have not a law, by nature may do the things of the law, these not having a law--to themselves are a law; who do shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also witnessing with them, and between one another the thoughts accusing or else defending, in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my good news, through Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

[TRANSPONDER]

...That raises the question of people who behaved badly and used Christian faith as the justification and whether a person wo behaved as well as a Christian also hot Saved if they were not a Christian...

The key is righteousness. Even if person would not know anything about Jesus, if he shows by his actions that he is righteous, he can have the eternal life that is promised only for righteous. But, even then, it is not the reward for right actions, it is a gift for those who are righteous. And I believe it is a gift for them, because they know how to live well and therefore are worthy of the life.

for as many as without law did sin, without law also shall perish, and as many as did sin in law, through law shall be judged, for not the hearers of the law are righteous before God, but the doers of the law shall be declared righteous: -- For, when nations that have not a law, by nature may do the things of the law, these not having a law--to themselves are a law; who do shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also witnessing with them, and between one another the thoughts accusing or else defending, in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my good news, through Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

Ok. Then you have invented your own religion, and belief in God, Jesus or the Bible is not required to be saved. So I don't know why you keep quoting it.

Of course you know that Paul is talking about Jewish (Mosaic) Law, but I get that it can relate to natural morality where people have never heard about Judaism or Christianity. Paul says that God through Jesus will judge in the end, but it appears on the basis of their deeds not on their religion. You ignore the bits of Paul that suggests that Faith in Jesus is required and pick the quotes that fit your idea that just good deeds are required. This goes against the Abrahamic idea that everyone is a sinner worthy of death because of Adam, but you ignore that, too. The question is whether just good deeds saves or whether Godfaith is needed.

You said that Abraham was Righteous because he Believed God (what he said or instructed) but the belief in God must come first. It doesn't say that people do or can be righteous if they don't know about God or his law.

Your citing of Paul implies they can, but we end up where we started. If that can be done, God, Jesus and Bible is not needed and nor is Christianity or any other religion. If however they are, it is because Faith in God, Jesus and Bible is needed. The only way out is to claim that the teachings of God and Jesus through the Bible are needed to tell people how to be good. But Bible morality has been severely questioned. If it ever was a guide to Good behavior, (let alone being Righteous through doing what God says) is isn't any longer. Your doctrine seems to be one that does away with God, Jesus and the Bible.

Why do we need belief in God Jesus or the Bible in your system? Tell us.

[POI]

1. It tells such person will be saved, not the reason for that, if we are literal and remain just what is said in the Bible.
2. Saved can mean that person's sin has been forgiven and so he has been saved from the judgment that would come because of the sin. If person continues in sin after that, it was not useful and person probably doesn't go to heaven.
3. There is no Biblical scripture that says so. Why do you think I should replace Bible with your doctrines?

1. It does say the reason(s). The reason(s) you are saved is because of belief and baptism.
2. You are arguing oranges, while I'm arguing apples. If Jesus deems you saved, you are going to Heaven, right? And according to Mark 16:15-16, if you believe and are baptized, you are deemed saved. Nothing more is needed to be saved, according to Mark.
3. Yes it does, you just continue to ignore it:

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood-to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished- 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. - Romans 3

And...

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. - Romans 4

[1213]

...
2. You are arguing oranges, while I'm arguing apples. If Jesus deems you saved, you are going to Heaven, right? And according to Mark 16:15-16, if you believe and are baptized, you are deemed saved. Nothing more is needed to be saved, according to Mark.

If one believes Jesus and God, it is a sign of righteousness and by that one can be counted righteous.

4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. - Romans 4

If person has faith, it shows person is righteous. That is what it means when faith is credited as righteousness. Faith is also only like an action. It tells what kind of person one is.