Questions about Jesus and JW’s

[MissKate13]

1. Jehovah’s Witnesses say Jesus was “a god.” This is how the NWT reads (John 1:1).

Do JW’s believe Jesus was a true or false god?

2. JW’s say Jesus is a created being.

When was Jesus (capital or lower case g) created?

I look forward to your responses to one or both questions.

MissKate13

[JehovahsWitness]

Show me where this isn't so! Philippians 2:6-11

QUESTION: Can Philippians 2:5, 6 be used to support the trinity?

Philippians 2:5, 6 reads as follows in English:

ENGLISH STANDARD VERSION
Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped

Was Paul saying here that Jesus considered equality with God to be something he should rightfully "grasp" (ie to take and cling to) OR was Paul's meaning that that Jesus knew he had no right to try and obtain it?

The phrase in verse 6, [ouch harpagmon hegesato: not - seize - (he) considered] is, it has to be admitted on the surface somewhat ambiguous. The Greek word translated "grasp" by the ESV is harpagmon ; about this word The Expositora's Greek Testament makes the following comment:

We cannot find any passage where [hara·pezo] or any of its derivatives [including harpagmon] has the sense of holding in possession, retaining. It seems invariably to mean "seize/ snatch violently." (Grand Rapids, Mich.; 1967), edited by W. Robertson Nicoll, Vol. III, pp. 436, 437.

A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament (George Abbot Smith), states "there is certainly a presumption in favour of the active meaning here" since the apostle does not use the LXX form harpagma. Paul thus speaks of an act of seizing [...] - A-S 60

Interestingly 1969, a new French lectionary that was approved by the Holy See rendered Phil 2:6: Christ Jesus is God's image; but he did not choose to seize by force equality with God

NOTE: If he [Christ] refused to seize it [equality with God], it must be that he did not already possess it. stated The Catholic monthly magazine Itineraires, supplement January 1971. If Christ did not already possess equality with God he cannot *BE* God.


COULD "GRASP" HERE [HEGESATO] BE AN IDIOMATIC EXPRESSION FOR EXPOIT OR ABUSE SOMETHING ONE ALREADY POSSESSES?

That said, the context implies that we are talking about innate qualities, inseperable from the persons essence. If Jesus was equal to Almighty God he could not arguably seperate himself from that equality ( like a sword or jewells one chooses not to wear). For example if instead of Jewels or a sword we are talking about beauty or love then while one can choose or not chose to use (or abuse) such powers but since its part of who one is , it cannot be set aside to be taken up at a later moment like an adornment or a weapon.

Indeed Paul contrasts what Jesus did not do (seize equality) with what he did do (agree to being sent to earth ) and subsequently what the Father did, promote Jesus to a higher position - all of which it totally incompatible imo, with the interactions between two equally Almighty individuals.


CONCLUSION Given the above Philippians evidently carries the active meaning of snatching (i.e., a usurpation). Being in the negative it conveys the idea that Jesus did not /never (ouch) consider (hegesato) snatching or seizing [harpagmon] equality. Obviously if Jesus rejected (would not consider) the notion it would be because he considered it (being equal with God) wrong. Thus Paul is affirming the fact that Jesus did not aspire to equality with God.








JW


Further reading : https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -26-7.html


RELATED POSTS

QUESTION: Can Philippians 2:5, 6 be used to support the trinity?
viewtopic.php?p=872798#p872798

How should Harpagmos rightly be translated? [tigger]
viewtopic.php?p=1041994#p1041994

To learn more please go to to other posts related to ...

GOD, JESUS and ...THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED

[onewithhim]

I believe that there is only ONE GOD and that GOD only is able to both CREATE and FORGIVE and LOVE. No created being has the ability to create from nothing. This places CHRIST in a unique position and why I totally believe in the TRIUNITY of GOD.

Oh be for real. Once again you didn't bother to read my post. It's no use going around and around with you when you don't want to have a reasonable discussion. God Almighty GAVE Jesus the ability to create and judge and anything else Jesus does, in his Father's name. (See John chapter 17.) Jesus isn't part of a trinity. He just RECEIVED power and authority from his Father---Almighty God (and the ONLY true God as Jesus said at John 17:3).

Your posts are Biblically selective. GOD doesn't give away the ability to be GOD. CHRIST and HIS FATHER are ONE. JESUS is a unique being: All MAN yet entirely GOD. CHRIST LOVED US and that is why CHRIST died for us. I'm going to start another thread where JESUS CHRIST speaks for HIMSELF.

You are not being Scripturally accurate. God HAS given Jesus power and authority. You might want to peruse your copy of the Bible once more. Jesus and his Father, God, are "one" in the same sense as the disciples are one with God and Jesus. They are in agreement, unified in thought. In prayer to God, Jesus said about his disciples: "I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one, just as we are one. I in union with them and you in union with me...." (John 17:20-23)

Jesus also said, referring to the fact that God has GIVEN him power and authority:

"All authority has been GIVEN to me in heaven and on the earth." (Matthew 28:18)

His Apostles also said, concerning how God gave Jesus power and glory: "God also EXALTED him to a superior position and kindly GAVE him the name that is above every other name." (Philippians 2:9)

So to sum up the point, Jesus and God and the disciples are all "one," that is, united in thought and deed. If being "one" with God means that a person himself is God, then THE DISCIPLES ARE ALSO GOD, as you can see from the Scriptures quoted. They are also "one" with God.

Jesus could not be God because he prayed TO God, and he said that he couldn't do anything by himself but only what God showed him to do. (John 5:19, 30; John 12:49,50) He and his Father are two distinct individuals, as the Scriptures show us unequivocally. Jesus said he came to do his Father's will, and not his own will. Jesus is subordinate to the Father, God. He said again: "I seek not my own will, but the will of him that sent me." (John 5:30)

You accusation that I am "selective" with verses is untrue. I'm afraid that that situation falls to you. You say things that contradict the whole Bible canon.

JESUS had emptied HIMself, and as such had taken on the form of a servant. HE then behaved in the way of a perfect man who entirely places HIS faith and trust in the HEAVENLY FATHER. You write things that consistently contradict what the Bible reveals regarding the nature of the MESSIAH. The book Revelation of JESUS CHRIST 1:6 "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

All who believe live in the sphere of God's rule, a kingdom entered by faith in Jesus Christ. And as priests, believers have the right to enter God's presence.

The most important statement (in verse 6), is that Jesus is called God. The statement "God and his Father" leaves no doubt that Jesus was, is, and always will be God. Notice too, that it is nothing we do that makes us kings and priests. Jesus makes us kings and priests.

Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

The first words of Jesus to John personally identify him with the "I AM" of Scripture, for He calls Himself the "Alpha and Omega." These are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. The title signifies, in the language of communication, the completeness with which God revealed Himself to mankind through Christ. This is nothing less than an official affirmation by Jesus of His personal deity. No ordinary human would ever say of himself, "I am the first and last."

We see here that God the Father, God the Word, and God the Holy Spirit are all three eternal. They each have no beginning and no end. Their Spirit is one. Their embodiments are three.

In Revelation 1:6 it is speaking about Jesus, yes, and you notice that it speaks about "his God and Father." Therefore Jesus could not be God. Jesus HAS a God. And that God is his Father, Jehovah.

In verse 8 JEHOVAH is speaking---the God of Jesus. Jehovah is the Alpha and Omega. Do you not consider that Jesus' God and Father would have many things to say in this letter of John's? Everything is not from Jesus. Verse 1 shows us that the revelation is given to John by Jesus Christ, and God GAVE him the revelation. So Jesus isn't God, as can plainly be seen here. God gave the revelation TO Jesus, and Jesus passed it on to John through a angel. Four persons involved here in verse 1.

The King James translation is correct of Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation is the GREAT REVEAL that JESUS CHRIST is in fact GOD. Everything else has already been explained. CHRIST reveals HIS eternal connection with HIS FATHER, the HOLY SPIRIT, by being uniquely GOD in the flesh. And this is how GOD remains unchanged but able to become a MAN. The angels cry HOLY, HOLY, HOLY. The GOD HEAD. What was, is , and yet to come. THE TRINITY REVEALED through CHRIST JESUS.

No, Revelation does not show Jesus to be God. Far from it. You quoted yourself that Jesus has a God ("He hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father"), and therefore Jesus is not that God that he has. Jesus and God, the Father, are two individuals. This is evident throughout the entire Bible.

Jesus said: "The one that conquers---I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine." (Revelation 3:12)

It is clear that, in his own words, Jesus has a God. Therefore he is not God.

[Difflugia]

The phrase in verse 6, [ouch harpagmon hegesato: not - seize - (he) considered] is, it has to be admitted on the surface somewhat ambiguous.

"Somewhat" ambiguous? The Greek as written makes no grammatical sense. Like most of the evidence in this discussion, one's theology must be read into the text, rendering it as circular to use it as evidence of anything. You should know this, in fact, because I've had exactly this conversation with you. As in, copy-and-paste exactly.

THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED

The same discussion also addresses your rather optimistic use of the word "DEBUNKED."

[onewithhim]

The phrase in verse 6, [ouch harpagmon hegesato: not - seize - (he) considered] is, it has to be admitted on the surface somewhat ambiguous.

"Somewhat" ambiguous? The Greek as written makes no grammatical sense. Like most of the evidence in this discussion, one's theology must be read into the text, rendering it as circular to use it as evidence of anything. You should know this, in fact, because I've had exactly this conversation with you. As in, copy-and-paste exactly.

THE "TRINITY TEXTS" DEBUNKED

The same discussion also addresses your rather optimistic use of the word "DEBUNKED."

Do you really understand what JehovahsWitness is saying in those posts? I don't think it is ambiguous at all.

[LittleNipper]

I believe that there is only ONE GOD and that GOD only is able to both CREATE and FORGIVE and LOVE. No created being has the ability to create from nothing. This places CHRIST in a unique position and why I totally believe in the TRIUNITY of GOD.

Oh be for real. Once again you didn't bother to read my post. It's no use going around and around with you when you don't want to have a reasonable discussion. God Almighty GAVE Jesus the ability to create and judge and anything else Jesus does, in his Father's name. (See John chapter 17.) Jesus isn't part of a trinity. He just RECEIVED power and authority from his Father---Almighty God (and the ONLY true God as Jesus said at John 17:3).

Your posts are Biblically selective. GOD doesn't give away the ability to be GOD. CHRIST and HIS FATHER are ONE. JESUS is a unique being: All MAN yet entirely GOD. CHRIST LOVED US and that is why CHRIST died for us. I'm going to start another thread where JESUS CHRIST speaks for HIMSELF.

You are not being Scripturally accurate. God HAS given Jesus power and authority. You might want to peruse your copy of the Bible once more. Jesus and his Father, God, are "one" in the same sense as the disciples are one with God and Jesus. They are in agreement, unified in thought. In prayer to God, Jesus said about his disciples: "I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one, just as we are one. I in union with them and you in union with me...." (John 17:20-23)

Jesus also said, referring to the fact that God has GIVEN him power and authority:

"All authority has been GIVEN to me in heaven and on the earth." (Matthew 28:18)

His Apostles also said, concerning how God gave Jesus power and glory: "God also EXALTED him to a superior position and kindly GAVE him the name that is above every other name." (Philippians 2:9)

So to sum up the point, Jesus and God and the disciples are all "one," that is, united in thought and deed. If being "one" with God means that a person himself is God, then THE DISCIPLES ARE ALSO GOD, as you can see from the Scriptures quoted. They are also "one" with God.

Jesus could not be God because he prayed TO God, and he said that he couldn't do anything by himself but only what God showed him to do. (John 5:19, 30; John 12:49,50) He and his Father are two distinct individuals, as the Scriptures show us unequivocally. Jesus said he came to do his Father's will, and not his own will. Jesus is subordinate to the Father, God. He said again: "I seek not my own will, but the will of him that sent me." (John 5:30)

You accusation that I am "selective" with verses is untrue. I'm afraid that that situation falls to you. You say things that contradict the whole Bible canon.

JESUS had emptied HIMself, and as such had taken on the form of a servant. HE then behaved in the way of a perfect man who entirely places HIS faith and trust in the HEAVENLY FATHER. You write things that consistently contradict what the Bible reveals regarding the nature of the MESSIAH. The book Revelation of JESUS CHRIST 1:6 "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

All who believe live in the sphere of God's rule, a kingdom entered by faith in Jesus Christ. And as priests, believers have the right to enter God's presence.

The most important statement (in verse 6), is that Jesus is called God. The statement "God and his Father" leaves no doubt that Jesus was, is, and always will be God. Notice too, that it is nothing we do that makes us kings and priests. Jesus makes us kings and priests.

Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

The first words of Jesus to John personally identify him with the "I AM" of Scripture, for He calls Himself the "Alpha and Omega." These are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. The title signifies, in the language of communication, the completeness with which God revealed Himself to mankind through Christ. This is nothing less than an official affirmation by Jesus of His personal deity. No ordinary human would ever say of himself, "I am the first and last."

We see here that God the Father, God the Word, and God the Holy Spirit are all three eternal. They each have no beginning and no end. Their Spirit is one. Their embodiments are three.

In Revelation 1:6 it is speaking about Jesus, yes, and you notice that it speaks about "his God and Father." Therefore Jesus could not be God. Jesus HAS a God. And that God is his Father, Jehovah.

In verse 8 JEHOVAH is speaking---the God of Jesus. Jehovah is the Alpha and Omega. Do you not consider that Jesus' God and Father would have many things to say in this letter of John's? Everything is not from Jesus. Verse 1 shows us that the revelation is given to John by Jesus Christ, and God GAVE him the revelation. So Jesus isn't God, as can plainly be seen here. God gave the revelation TO Jesus, and Jesus passed it on to John through a angel. Four persons involved here in verse 1.

The King James translation is correct of Revelation 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation is the GREAT REVEAL that JESUS CHRIST is in fact GOD. Everything else has already been explained. CHRIST reveals HIS eternal connection with HIS FATHER, the HOLY SPIRIT, by being uniquely GOD in the flesh. And this is how GOD remains unchanged but able to become a MAN. The angels cry HOLY, HOLY, HOLY. The GOD HEAD. What was, is , and yet to come. THE TRINITY REVEALED through CHRIST JESUS.

No, Revelation does not show Jesus to be God. Far from it. You quoted yourself that Jesus has a God ("He hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father"), and therefore Jesus is not that God that he has. Jesus and God, the Father, are two individuals. This is evident throughout the entire Bible.

Jesus said: "The one that conquers---I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine." (Revelation 3:12)

It is clear that, in his own words, Jesus has a God. Therefore he is not God.

Truth be told, JWs do not regard the HOLY SPIRIT as a person, yet I do and I feel that is the key. You may wish to regard the following: https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-God-man.html

[Difflugia]

Do you really understand what JehovahsWitness is saying in those posts?

Yes.

I don't think it is ambiguous at all.

Improve your Greek and you will.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to LittleNipper in post #505]

You are correct. JWs do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a person. Holy Spirit was poured out on the 120 disciples in the upper room on the day of Pentecost when they all started speaking in different languages. (Acts 2: 1-6; Acts 2:33; Acts 10:45) Now tell me----how can a person be poured out? And how could a person be a lot of tongues of fire and rest on each disciple? (Acts 2:3)

"Therefore because he [Jesus] was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised Holy Spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which you see and hear." (Acts 2:33)

"And the faithful ones that had come with Peter who were of those circumcised were amazed because the free gift of the Holy Spirit was being poured out also upon people of the nations." (Acts 10:45)

I personally don't think a person can be poured out or split up into tongues of fire.

[LittleNipper]

[Replying to LittleNipper in post #505]

You are correct. JWs do not believe that the Holy Spirit is a person. Holy Spirit was poured out on the 120 disciples in the upper room on the day of Pentecost when they all started speaking in different languages. (Acts 2: 1-6; Acts 2:33; Acts 10:45) Now tell me----how can a person be poured out? And how could a person be a lot of tongues of fire and rest on each disciple? (Acts 2:3)

"Therefore because he [Jesus] was exalted to the right hand of God and received the promised Holy Spirit from the Father, he has poured out this which you see and hear." (Acts 2:33)

"And the faithful ones that had come with Peter who were of those circumcised were amazed because the free gift of the Holy Spirit was being poured out also upon people of the nations." (Acts 10:45)

I personally don't think a person can be poured out or split up into tongues of fire.

As I've stated. Each of the beings of the GODHEAD have specific qualities, and yet all three benefit from each other as ONE essence.

[JehovahsWitness]

As I've stated. Each of the beings of the GODHEAD have specific qualities, and yet all three benefit from each other as ONE essence.

I cannot say I understand what all that means, but scripture is clear, the Son, even I heaven ( in spirit form) is not equal in age, power, role or position to The Father (YHWH).

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[LittleNipper]

As I've stated. Each of the beings of the GODHEAD have specific qualities, and yet all three benefit from each other as ONE essence.

I cannot say I understand what all that means, but scripture is clear, the Son, even I heaven ( in spirit form) is not equal in age, power, role or position to The Father (YHWH).

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

The MESSIAH is the ALPHA & the OMAGA. When HE took on humanity, HE emptied HIMSELF and stepped into time. The MESSIAH chose to limit HIMSELF and behave as a human with many human frailties. This is why JESUS can sympathize with us. The Bible does indicate (even through Satan's interaction) that the angels safeguarded JESUS so that HE would not so much as stub HIS toe. As the perfect sacrifice (like the lamb) HE needed to be without blemish. So, this all makes some sense to me... The MESSIAH spoke to Moses. HE wrestled with Jacob. The MESSIAH walked in the cool of the day with ADAM and even showed Adam how to perform an acceptable sacrifice. You need to step away from the JWs doctrine, views, and opinions and step into the light of CHRIST. Through the FATHER, CHRIST remains as perfect and as old as the FATHER and the HOLY SPIRIT. THEY are ONE eternally.