Grace (and/or) Belief/Faith (and/or) Works?

[POI]

Seems there exists an unresolved topic amongst Christians... Seems as though the way to salvation is not unified among the many in which I engage. I'd wager they all have a case to support their position(s).?.?

For debate: How does one get to Heaven? What is God's criteria for His selection process? Is it by grace alone, belief/faith alone, works alone; or it is a combination of the three? Or is it maybe other? Please, not only present your case, but please also explain why the other asserted methods are incorrect.

[1213]

C'mon Christians! What IS THE answer here? How exactly does one earn a ticket to Heaven? I would reckon that if God exists, and if God is good, and if God cares about his followers, that God will assure that his word(s) would not be so easily confused. And yet, this does not look to be the case. Why? The Christian answer is not unified/unanimous/universal. We have many denominations, for which many step all over each other. This means his word(s) are not clear. ....

Or it means people like more of their own interpretations and wishes than what is written in the Bible. I think Bible is clear on this matter and it is not God's fault, if people don't lie the truth.

[POI]

C'mon Christians! What IS THE answer here? How exactly does one earn a ticket to Heaven? I would reckon that if God exists, and if God is good, and if God cares about his followers, that God will assure that his word(s) would not be so easily confused. And yet, this does not look to be the case. Why? The Christian answer is not unified/unanimous/universal. We have many denominations, for which many step all over each other. This means his word(s) are not clear. ....

Or it means people like more of their own interpretations and wishes than what is written in the Bible. I think Bible is clear on this matter and it is not God's fault, if people don't lie the truth.

Another baseless claim form you. Of course it's the author's fault. There exist too many hands in the proverbial cookie jar. One can easily argue for options A), B), C), and/or D). Why? Because differing authors assert differing paths.

Every individual, who is a believer, answered in earnest. And many are diametrically opposed to one another. This is because 1) the words are not clear -- (as evidence by your inability to correctly read Romans 3), or 2) some verses oppose other verses -- (Mark 16 or Romans 3 <v.> Matthew 25), or 3) some verses leave out vital information which would exclude portions of the population in a seemingly unjust manor -- (like the unborn being sent to torment). This is why Christian apologetics was invented. It became a necessity. Mental acrobatics are required to retain such FAITH.

The collection is inconsistent, and one can argue more than one way to enter 'Heaven'. Case/point, the pages and pages of exchanges displayed in this thread...

And I also spent much time with you explaining 'righteousness', via Romans 3. So yes, you, yourself, do not understand. But alas, it's not your fault. It's the one you worship. The word(s) are not clear enough for all believers to unanimously agree. Even though the author(s) demonstrates that the author(s) CAN be very clear, when they want to be... Tisk tisk....

[Capbook]

C'mon Christians! What IS THE answer here? How exactly does one earn a ticket to Heaven? I would reckon that if God exists, and if God is good, and if God cares about his followers, that God will assure that his word(s) would not be so easily confused. And yet, this does not look to be the case. Why? The Christian answer is not unified/unanimous/universal. We have many denominations, for which many step all over each other. This means his word(s) are not clear. ....

Or it means people like more of their own interpretations and wishes than what is written in the Bible. I think Bible is clear on this matter and it is not God's fault, if people don't lie the truth.

Another baseless claim form you. Of course it's the author's fault. There exist too many hands in the proverbial cookie jar. One can easily argue for options A), B), C), and/or D). Why? Because differing authors assert differing paths.

Every individual, who is a believer, answered in earnest. And many are diametrically opposed to one another. This is because 1) the words are not clear -- (as evidence by your inability to correctly read Romans 3), or 2) some verses oppose other verses -- (Mark 16 or Romans 3 <v.> Matthew 25), or 3) some verses leave out vital information which would exclude portions of the population in a seemingly unjust manor -- (like the unborn being sent to torment). This is why Christian apologetics was invented. It became a necessity. Mental acrobatics are required to retain such FAITH.

The collection is inconsistent, and one can argue more than one way to enter 'Heaven'. Case/point, the pages and pages of exchanges displayed in this thread...

And I also spent much time with you explaining 'righteousness', via Romans 3. So yes, you, yourself, do not understand. But alas, it's not your fault. It's the one you worship. The word(s) are not clear enough for all believers to unanimously agree. Even though the author(s) demonstrates that the author(s) CAN be very clear, when they want to be... Tisk tisk....

I don't know that there are verses that opposes other verses.
Are you kind enough to post some for us to see it?

[TRANSPONDER]

I would agree that the authors of the Bible are the purveyors of confusion.

I would disagree that the authors of the Bible are not the purveyors of confusion.

Believer or not, if one objectively reads the NT, one could make a case for conflicting paths to salvation.

Not if one one lets the bible translate itself. One might not necessarily understand everything in scripture but not understanding doesn't equates to confusion. Most atheists I have met cannot explain the origins of the universe but that doesnt mean they live in "confusion". Unless one attempts to impose one's misconceptions where they do not belong, therenis no reason for scripture to be confusing.

I'll start by posing the same question to you, for which I presented to the Christian audience in general:

How does a Christian get to Heaven?

- Grace alone
- Grace by faith/belief alone
- Grace by faith/belief + works
- Other

Why ? How would my answers prove your point or disprove my own?

We shall see - if you have the moral courage to answer. That you doubt your own beliefs, deep down is shewn if not shown by you suspicious distrust of the question. You fear to be trapped. But fear not There is no trap, just a question; is salvation through faith and works don't count, or is it through faith plus works (as Paul realised) or just works (in accordance with God's dictates, as our pal 1213 says or human morals as I (for one) say?

C'mon Christians! What IS THE answer here? How exactly does one earn a ticket to Heaven? I would reckon that if God exists, and if God is good, and if God cares about his followers, that God will assure that his word(s) would not be so easily confused. And yet, this does not look to be the case. Why? The Christian answer is not unified/unanimous/universal. We have many denominations, for which many step all over each other. This means his word(s) are not clear. ....

Or it means people like more of their own interpretations and wishes than what is written in the Bible. I think Bible is clear on this matter and it is not God's fault, if people don't lie the truth.

posting.php?mode=quote&f=8&p=1157125#

The only ones who lie the truth and Bible apologists who deny what science says and even what the Bible says if they don't like it

Which of course, is what you meant to say. Sorry, but I couldn't resist it.

But I do resist the idea that the Bible is clear and what you call the truth' o is (and the Bible o implies this) Faith.And what Faith is, ids a pretence that ignoring problems and claiming a thing is so when it is not, or is not so when it is (slavery in the Bible, for one example) and is as Theramin trees says a perfect system for concealing lies.

and "Faith is a virtue" (it is claimed) 'No, it isn't'. .

I hate to go all political just now, especially with a short time to the election, but it has clarified just how Fundamentalists Christianity has become not only a billion dollar industry and a propaganda machine (through the Tea party and AEI) to exploit Creationists science - denial to benefit the fossil fuel companies and of course is all behind Maga politics now.

[TRANSPONDER]

C'mon Christians! What IS THE answer here? How exactly does one earn a ticket to Heaven? I would reckon that if God exists, and if God is good, and if God cares about his followers, that God will assure that his word(s) would not be so easily confused. And yet, this does not look to be the case. Why? The Christian answer is not unified/unanimous/universal. We have many denominations, for which many step all over each other. This means his word(s) are not clear. ....

Or it means people like more of their own interpretations and wishes than what is written in the Bible. I think Bible is clear on this matter and it is not God's fault, if people don't lie the truth.

Another baseless claim form you. Of course it's the author's fault. There exist too many hands in the proverbial cookie jar. One can easily argue for options A), B), C), and/or D). Why? Because differing authors assert differing paths.

Every individual, who is a believer, answered in earnest. And many are diametrically opposed to one another. This is because 1) the words are not clear -- (as evidence by your inability to correctly read Romans 3), or 2) some verses oppose other verses -- (Mark 16 or Romans 3 <v.> Matthew 25), or 3) some verses leave out vital information which would exclude portions of the population in a seemingly unjust manor -- (like the unborn being sent to torment). This is why Christian apologetics was invented. It became a necessity. Mental acrobatics are required to retain such FAITH.

The collection is inconsistent, and one can argue more than one way to enter 'Heaven'. Case/point, the pages and pages of exchanges displayed in this thread...

And I also spent much time with you explaining 'righteousness', via Romans 3. So yes, you, yourself, do not understand. But alas, it's not your fault. It's the one you worship. The word(s) are not clear enough for all believers to unanimously agree. Even though the author(s) demonstrates that the author(s) CAN be very clear, when they want to be... Tisk tisk....

I don't know that there are verses that opposes other verses.
Are you kind enough to post some for us to see it?

I could cite the fanatic insistence on Sabbath observance in the OT being opposed by Jesus teaching that the Sabbath didn't matter, not only on the pretext of doing good, but just if you preferred to go for a strioll picking berries to nibble on the way.

I might also take that as covering contradictions, such as the clear contradictions of the Resurrection and the fact that the nativities contradict.

And there is much, much, more reason to simply consider the Bible an interesting book, a thought - provoking book, at times, but not a book that is a reliable record, a book of unquestionable truth or a book upon which to base human life and society.

[POI]

I don't know that there are verses that opposes other verses. Are you kind enough to post some for us to see it?

1) Is belief in Jesus an absolute requirement, or not? (i.e.) Romans 10 (vs) Matthew 25:31-46 (vs) Romans 3:21-26 (vs) Mark 16:15-16.

2) Further, are there any listed exceptions to Romans 10, or not (yes or no)? Please demonstrate your (yes or no) answer by citing Bible verse(s).

3) As I stated in my last post, Christian apologetics was a necessity to be created. Why?:

a) Too many cooks in the kitchen, who emphasize differing paths and messages which may oppose other messages...
b) Coving up some asserted topics we no longer agree with morally...
c) Telling folks such-and-such message is not actually meant to be taken literally, to protect what the Bible clearly asserts in plain readings...

4) As I've already communicated, since God has the ability to be clear, when he so chooses, why remain not so crystal clear about 'salvation'? Meaning, God knows humans are dumb. Humans have created countless denominations in his name. Many assert diametrically opposing tasks for salvation. Does God offer grace for the ones who are earnestly wrong? Apparently, the stakes are very high for the ones who are wrong here.

[1213]

....

Every individual, who is a believer, answered in earnest. And many are diametrically opposed to one another. This is because 1) the words are not clear -- (as evidence by your inability to correctly read Romans 3), or 2) some verses oppose other verses -- (Mark 16 or Romans 3 <v.> Matthew 25), or 3) some verses leave out vital information which would exclude portions of the population in a seemingly unjust manor -- (like the unborn being sent to torment). This is why Christian apologetics was invented. It became a necessity. Mental acrobatics are required to retain such FAITH.

The collection is inconsistent, and one can argue more than one way to enter 'Heaven'. Case/point, the pages and pages of exchanges displayed in this thread...

And I also spent much time with you explaining 'righteousness', via Romans 3. So yes, you, yourself, do not understand. But alas, it's not your fault. It's the one you worship. The word(s) are not clear enough for all believers to unanimously agree. Even though the author(s) demonstrates that the author(s) CAN be very clear, when they want to be... Tisk tisk....

Thank you for making this easy for me. If you claim it is the scriptures that are contradictory, then you could show two scriptures that are contradictory. If you can't do that, then it is not the Bible that is the problem. I don't think you can do that, therefore I think you are wrong.

[1213]

...
The only ones who lie the truth and Bible apologists who deny what science says and even what the Bible says if they don't like it

Which of course, is what you meant to say. Sorry, but I couldn't resist it.

Thanks for understanding it correctly.

But I do resist the idea that the Bible is clear....

Please give one example of a scripture that is not clear?

[TRANSPONDER]

...
The only ones who lie the truth and Bible apologists who deny what science says and even what the Bible says if they don't like it

Which of course, is what you meant to say. Sorry, but I couldn't resist it.

Thanks for understanding it correctly.

But I do resist the idea that the Bible is clear....

Please give one example of a scripture that is not clear?

As to Unclear, this is misguided; the Bible is generally very clear. But the lack of 'clarity' comes when Bible apologists deny that what it says is what it really says, like slavery, the daylight made before the sun and that matthew says the women met Jesus before the disciples went to the tomb, and Luke and John say pretty clearly that he didn't.

But as to lack of clarity, here's one you might like to explain or answer. I think the writers themselves didn't know what it meant, so just repeat it to show the Sadducees being stumped.

I think I understand it, but you explain it - and with better than Faith That Jesus is lord, god, savior and son of David, too. Faithclaims do not explain.

Mark 12.35 While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked, “Why do the teachers of the law say that the Messiah is the son of David? 36 David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared:

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.”’[h]

37 David himself calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?”

To explain the problem, if not the solution, ..no, sorry, I explained the problem, but it gave away the solution. You see if you can do better than the synoptic writers who don't appear to have understood it.

[POI]

If you claim it is the scriptures that are contradictory, then you could show two scriptures that are contradictory. If you can't do that, then it is not the Bible that is the problem.

Then the Bible is the problem: Romans 3:21-26 and Romans 10:9 (Vs.) Matthew 25:31-46 (Vs.) Mark 16:15-16
Is Jesus-faith absolutely required, or not?

Romans 3 & 10 states salvation is gained solely by faith, where-as Matthew 25 states it is solely by one's works/deeds. Further, Mark 16 then states that you not only need belief/faith, but baptism as well. Hence, is the answer B) - faith, C) - works, or D) - both?