Do patterns of phylogenesis show evolution?

[Difflugia]

Question for debate: Are the patterns seen in molecular phylogenies sufficient to show that biological evolution occurred?

For reference and easier Googling, the science of generating evolutionary trees is known as cladistics or phylogenetic systematics. Using DNA sequence data to generate the trees is molecular phylogeny.

The standard of evidence I'll be discussing is reasonable doubt. Even that's pretty broad, but if your argument hinges on "possible," you should be able to at least quantify that.

I've generated phylogenies using online tools previously and discussed them in this post. I tried to start a tutorial in this thread. If someone wants to discuss how to actually use the tools and data, feel free to ask questions in the tutorial thread and I'll pick it back up.

This debate question is a response to this comment.

[The Barbarian]

Marke: Like so many other ideas dreamed up by the left, the assumption that humans emerged from initial black-African human-apes and are steadily getting smarter is disproven by the clear fact that educated democrats in the US are getting stupider.[/b]

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Marke: Darwin and early evolutionists were racists. Darwin believed the first humans to emerge from animals were blacks in Africa who later evolved into higher or more civilized races. Early American scientific and business leaders showcased African pygmies in zoos with monkeys to illustrate what they believed were exampoles of early evolution of the human race. Madison Grant was a celebrated early American legal and scientific racist whose book The Passing of the Great Race was praised by Hitler as his bible.

Madison Grant (November 19, 1865 May 30, 1937) was an American lawyer, zoologist, anthropologist, and writer known for his work as a conservationist, eugenicist, and advocate of scientific racism. Grant is less noted for his far-reaching achievements in conservation than for his pseudoscientific advocacy of Nordicism, a form of racism which views the "Nordic race" as superior.[1][2]

Darwin differed from the creationists of his day by recognizing that all humans were of the same species and they all deserved freedom and dignity. Today, evolutionary theory has shown that there are not biological human races today. But as late as the 1990s, creationists like Henry Morris, co-founder of the Institute for Creation Research, were blathering nonsense about the supposed intellectual and spiritual inferiority of black humans:

"Yet the prophecy again has its obverse side. Somehow, they have only gone so far and no further. The Japhethites and Semites have, sooner or later, taken over their territories and their inventions, and then developed them and utilized them for their own enlargement. Often the Hamites, especially the Negroes, have become actual personal servants or even slaves to the others. Possessed of a genetic character concerned mainly with mundane matters, they were eventually displaced by the intellectual and philosophical acumen of the Japhethites and the religious zeal of the Semites."
Henry Morris The Beginning of the World

I'm not accusing all YE creationists of being racist; many of them have rejected the racist foundations of YE creationism. But it doesn't hurt to remind them of where it all started.

[marke]

Marke: Like so many other ideas dreamed up by the left, the assumption that humans emerged from initial black-African human-apes and are steadily getting smarter is disproven by the clear fact that educated democrats in the US are getting stupider.[/b]

Moderator Comment

Please do not denigrate groups of people.

Please review the Rules.





______________



Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

Marke: Darwin and early evolutionists were racists. Darwin believed the first humans to emerge from animals were blacks in Africa who later evolved into higher or more civilized races. Early American scientific and business leaders showcased African pygmies in zoos with monkeys to illustrate what they believed were exampoles of early evolution of the human race. Madison Grant was a celebrated early American legal and scientific racist whose book The Passing of the Great Race was praised by Hitler as his bible.

Madison Grant (November 19, 1865 May 30, 1937) was an American lawyer, zoologist, anthropologist, and writer known for his work as a conservationist, eugenicist, and advocate of scientific racism. Grant is less noted for his far-reaching achievements in conservation than for his pseudoscientific advocacy of Nordicism, a form of racism which views the "Nordic race" as superior.[1][2]

Darwin differed from the creationists of his day by recognizing that all humans were of the same species and they all deserved freedom and dignity.

Marke: Darwin referred to some blacks as 'savages.' God had nothing to do with that assumption.

Today, evolutionary theory has shown that there are not biological human races today. But as late as the 1990s, creationists like Henry Morris, co-founder of the Institute for Creation Research, were blathering nonsense about the supposed intellectual and spiritual inferiority of black humans:

Marke: God made humans similar but different. Not all humans are tall or short, not all are smart or intellectually challenged, not all are athletic or not, and so forth.

"Yet the prophecy again has its obverse side. Somehow, they have only gone so far and no further. The Japhethites and Semites have, sooner or later, taken over their territories and their inventions, and then developed them and utilized them for their own enlargement. Often the Hamites, especially the Negroes, have become actual personal servants or even slaves to the others. Possessed of a genetic character concerned mainly with mundane matters, they were eventually displaced by the intellectual and philosophical acumen of the Japhethites and the religious zeal of the Semites."
Henry Morris The Beginning of the World

I'm not accusing all YE creationists of being racist; many of them have rejected the racist foundations of YE creationism. But it doesn't hurt to remind them of where it all started.

Marke: Creationism is not racist, evolutionism is.

[otseng]

[Replying to marke in post #550]

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Please cease from the tit-for-tats and making sweeping statements without supporting evidence.

Please review the Rules.





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Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[The Barbarian]

Marke: Like so many other ideas dreamed up by the left, the assumption that humans emerged from initial black-African human-apes and are steadily getting smarter is disproven by the clear fact that educated democrats in the US are getting stupider.[/b]

Moderator Comment

Please do not denigrate groups of people.

Please review the Rules.





______________



Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

Marke: Darwin and early evolutionists were racists. Darwin believed the first humans to emerge from animals were blacks in Africa who later evolved into higher or more civilized races. Early American scientific and business leaders showcased African pygmies in zoos with monkeys to illustrate what they believed were exampoles of early evolution of the human race. Madison Grant was a celebrated early American legal and scientific racist whose book The Passing of the Great Race was praised by Hitler as his bible.

Madison Grant (November 19, 1865 May 30, 1937) was an American lawyer, zoologist, anthropologist, and writer known for his work as a conservationist, eugenicist, and advocate of scientific racism. Grant is less noted for his far-reaching achievements in conservation than for his pseudoscientific advocacy of Nordicism, a form of racism which views the "Nordic race" as superior.[1][2]

Darwin differed from the creationists of his day by recognizing that all humans were of the same species and they all deserved freedom and dignity.

Marke: Darwin referred to some blacks as 'savages.' God had nothing to do with that assumption.

Today, evolutionary theory has shown that there are not biological human races today. But as late as the 1990s, creationists like Henry Morris, co-founder of the Institute for Creation Research, were blathering nonsense about the supposed intellectual and spiritual inferiority of black humans:

Marke: God made humans similar but different. Not all humans are tall or short, not all are smart or intellectually challenged, not all are athletic or not, and so forth.

"Yet the prophecy again has its obverse side. Somehow, they have only gone so far and no further. The Japhethites and Semites have, sooner or later, taken over their territories and their inventions, and then developed them and utilized them for their own enlargement. Often the Hamites, especially the Negroes, have become actual personal servants or even slaves to the others. Possessed of a genetic character concerned mainly with mundane matters, they were eventually displaced by the intellectual and philosophical acumen of the Japhethites and the religious zeal of the Semites."
Henry Morris The Beginning of the World

I'm not accusing all YE creationists of being racist; many of them have rejected the racist foundations of YE creationism. But it doesn't hurt to remind them of where it all started.

Marke: Creationism is not racist, evolutionism is.

Notice the racism of YE creationists at the very foundation of YE beliefs.

"Often the Hamites, especially the Negroes, have become actual personal servants or even slaves to the others. Possessed of a genetic character concerned mainly with mundane matters, they were eventually displaced by the intellectual and philosophical acumen of the Japhethites and the religious zeal of the Semites."

It's no coincidence that YE creationism is most common in states where slavery and segregation were the law.

[Jose Fly]

I gotta wonder if Marke has ever been aware of why the Southern Baptist Convention was founded in the first place (hint: it was to protect the institution of slavery).

[marke]

Marke: Like so many other ideas dreamed up by the left, the assumption that humans emerged from initial black-African human-apes and are steadily getting smarter is disproven by the clear fact that educated democrats in the US are getting stupider.[/b]

Moderator Comment

Please do not denigrate groups of people.

Please review the Rules.





______________



Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

Marke: Darwin and early evolutionists were racists. Darwin believed the first humans to emerge from animals were blacks in Africa who later evolved into higher or more civilized races. Early American scientific and business leaders showcased African pygmies in zoos with monkeys to illustrate what they believed were exampoles of early evolution of the human race. Madison Grant was a celebrated early American legal and scientific racist whose book The Passing of the Great Race was praised by Hitler as his bible.

Madison Grant (November 19, 1865 May 30, 1937) was an American lawyer, zoologist, anthropologist, and writer known for his work as a conservationist, eugenicist, and advocate of scientific racism. Grant is less noted for his far-reaching achievements in conservation than for his pseudoscientific advocacy of Nordicism, a form of racism which views the "Nordic race" as superior.[1][2]

Darwin differed from the creationists of his day by recognizing that all humans were of the same species and they all deserved freedom and dignity.

Marke: Darwin referred to some blacks as 'savages.' God had nothing to do with that assumption.

Today, evolutionary theory has shown that there are not biological human races today. But as late as the 1990s, creationists like Henry Morris, co-founder of the Institute for Creation Research, were blathering nonsense about the supposed intellectual and spiritual inferiority of black humans:

Marke: God made humans similar but different. Not all humans are tall or short, not all are smart or intellectually challenged, not all are athletic or not, and so forth.

"Yet the prophecy again has its obverse side. Somehow, they have only gone so far and no further. The Japhethites and Semites have, sooner or later, taken over their territories and their inventions, and then developed them and utilized them for their own enlargement. Often the Hamites, especially the Negroes, have become actual personal servants or even slaves to the others. Possessed of a genetic character concerned mainly with mundane matters, they were eventually displaced by the intellectual and philosophical acumen of the Japhethites and the religious zeal of the Semites."
Henry Morris The Beginning of the World

I'm not accusing all YE creationists of being racist; many of them have rejected the racist foundations of YE creationism. But it doesn't hurt to remind them of where it all started.

Marke: Creationism is not racist, evolutionism is.

Notice the racism of YE creationists at the very foundation of YE beliefs.

"Often the Hamites, especially the Negroes, have become actual personal servants or even slaves to the others. Possessed of a genetic character concerned mainly with mundane matters, they were eventually displaced by the intellectual and philosophical acumen of the Japhethites and the religious zeal of the Semites."

It's no coincidence that YE creationism is most common in states where slavery and segregation were the law.

Marke: Botched interpretations of scrip[tures by people calling themselves Christians do not turn Darwinian evolution racism into something good.

[The Barbarian]

Botched interpretations of scrip[tures by people calling themselves Christians do not turn Darwinian evolution racism into something good.[/b]

Many YE creationists are Christians. Granted, the racists who founded YE creationism were not very good Christians, and many YE creationists today have rejected the racist foundations of YE creationism. But the fact remains. A co-founder of YE creationism was, into the 1990s, still asserting that the "genetic character" of blacks made them intellectually and spiritually inferior to other humans.

As you learned Darwin (like pretty much every other Englishman of his time) thought that Englishmen were superior to other humans. But his theory has nothing to say about that. Indeed, evolutionary theory has since shown that there are no biological human races. Darwin was wrong about that, and wrong in supposing that acquired characters might be inherited. But the four points of Darwnian theory remain as solid as ever. Can you show me even one of them that has been found to be false?

Neither can anyone else. For the obvious reasons.

[marke]

Botched interpretations of scrip[tures by people calling themselves Christians do not turn Darwinian evolution racism into something good.[/b]

Many YE creationists are Christians. Granted, the racists who founded YE creationism were not very good Christians, and many YE creationists today have rejected the racist foundations of YE creationism. But the fact remains. A co-founder of YE creationism was, into the 1990s, still asserting that the "genetic character" of blacks made them intellectually and spiritually inferior to other humans.

As you learned Darwin (like pretty much every other Englishman of his time) thought that Englishmen were superior to other humans. But his theory has nothing to say about that. Indeed, evolutionary theory has since shown that there are no biological human races. Darwin was wrong about that, and wrong in supposing that acquired characters might be inherited. But the four points of Darwnian theory remain as solid as ever. Can you show me even one of them that has been found to be false?

Neither can anyone else. For the obvious reasons.

Marke: I am not surprised that Christians who support the evolution lie are also racists and sacrilegious. I am also not surprised that the ungodly support neither God or young earth creationism but do support Darwinian evolution mythology.

[The Barbarian]

Botched interpretations of scrip[tures by people calling themselves Christians do not turn Darwinian evolution racism into something good.[/b]

Many YE creationists are Christians. Granted, the racists who founded YE creationism were not very good Christians, and many YE creationists today have rejected the racist foundations of YE creationism. But the fact remains. A co-founder of YE creationism was, into the 1990s, still asserting that the "genetic character" of blacks made them intellectually and spiritually inferior to other humans.

As you learned Darwin (like pretty much every other Englishman of his time) thought that Englishmen were superior to other humans. But his theory has nothing to say about that. Indeed, evolutionary theory has since shown that there are no biological human races. Darwin was wrong about that, and wrong in supposing that acquired characters might be inherited. But the four points of Darwnian theory remain as solid as ever. Can you show me even one of them that has been found to be false?

Neither can anyone else. For the obvious reasons.

Marke: I am not surprised that Christians who support the evolution lie are also racists and sacrilegious.

Evolutionary theory shows that there aren't even any biological human races. But YE creationism?

"Yet the prophecy again has its obverse side. Somehow, they have only gone so far and no further. The Japhethites and Semites have, sooner or later, taken over their territories and their inventions, and then developed them and utilized them for their own enlargement. Often the Hamites, especially the Negroes, have become actual personal servants or even slaves to the others. Possessed of a genetic character concerned mainly with mundane matters, they were eventually displaced by the intellectual and philosophical acumen of the Japhethites and the religious zeal of the Semites...Neither Negroes nor any other Hamitic people were intended to be forcibly subjugated on the basis of this Noah declaration. The prophecy would be inevitably fulfilled because of the innate natures of the three genetic stocks, not by virtue of any artificial constraints imposed by man."
YE creationist and co-founder of the Institute for Creation Research, Henry Morris, The Beginning of the World

Again, there are many YE creationists today, who are not racists, and who have rejected the racist foundations of YE creationism. But at the same time that evolutionary theory showed that racism was a delusion, the leadership of YE creationism was spewing the sort of garbage that Morris invented. I am not surprised that the many racists support young earth creationism but reject Darwinian evolution. I'll repeat my question:

Which of the four points of Darwinian theory do you think has been refuted, and what is your evidence for that?

As you know, the racist assumptions of YE creationism have been easily refuted by evolutionary theory. Would you like me to show you the evidence for that?

[marke]

Botched interpretations of scrip[tures by people calling themselves Christians do not turn Darwinian evolution racism into something good.[/b]

Many YE creationists are Christians. Granted, the racists who founded YE creationism were not very good Christians, and many YE creationists today have rejected the racist foundations of YE creationism. But the fact remains. A co-founder of YE creationism was, into the 1990s, still asserting that the "genetic character" of blacks made them intellectually and spiritually inferior to other humans.

As you learned Darwin (like pretty much every other Englishman of his time) thought that Englishmen were superior to other humans. But his theory has nothing to say about that. Indeed, evolutionary theory has since shown that there are no biological human races. Darwin was wrong about that, and wrong in supposing that acquired characters might be inherited. But the four points of Darwnian theory remain as solid as ever. Can you show me even one of them that has been found to be false?

Neither can anyone else. For the obvious reasons.

Marke: I am not surprised that Christians who support the evolution lie are also racists and sacrilegious.

Evolutionary theory shows that there aren't even any biological human races. But YE creationism?

Marke: God did support the division of nations at the fall of Babel. Different nations should be referred to as different cultures, not different races.


"Yet the prophecy again has its obverse side. Somehow, they have only gone so far and no further. The Japhethites and Semites have, sooner or later, taken over their territories and their inventions, and then developed them and utilized them for their own enlargement. Often the Hamites, especially the Negroes, have become actual personal servants or even slaves to the others. Possessed of a genetic character concerned mainly with mundane matters, they were eventually displaced by the intellectual and philosophical acumen of the Japhethites and the religious zeal of the Semites...Neither Negroes nor any other Hamitic people were intended to be forcibly subjugated on the basis of this Noah declaration. The prophecy would be inevitably fulfilled because of the innate natures of the three genetic stocks, not by virtue of any artificial constraints imposed by man."
YE creationist and co-founder of the Institute for Creation Research, Henry Morris, The Beginning of the World

Again, there are many YE creationists today, who are not racists, and who have rejected the racist foundations of YE creationism. But at the same time that evolutionary theory showed that racism was a delusion, the leadership of YE creationism was spewing the sort of garbage that Morris invented. I am not surprised that the many racists support young earth creationism but reject Darwinian evolution. I'll repeat my question:

Marke: God created all humans from the same blood of Adam. I see no racism in that. Darwin, on the other hand, surmised that the earliest humans to evolve from animals were black Africans.

Which of the four points of Darwinian theory do you think has been refuted, and what is your evidence for that?

Marke: What are the four points of Darwin's theory?

As you know, the racist assumptions of YE creationism have been easily refuted by evolutionary theory. Would you like me to show you the evidence for that?

Marke: I do not agree with any racist assumptions of YE creationists.