The Bible tells us that we are made of three parts. We have a body of flesh made to live on earth, to think, eat, drink, sleep, and die. It's a fleshly body that covers our spiritual body and soul. The spiritual body and soul are made to honor and worship God. Now, that’s a mouthful and covers a great deal of ground. When we die, our bodies are returned to the ground.
Genesis 3:19, For out of it (the ground) were you taken, for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return.”
Question, “What happens to a man’s soul, and spirit?” Answer: The saved go to be with the Lord, for those who reject the saving grace of Jesus Christ, they will find themselves in a place called Hades.
The following occurred before Jesus was put to death, and before the church age began. Jesus is speaking to the Jews, the publicans, Pharisees, scribes, and sinners. He spoke of things the Jewish elite and the people believed and understood. The ancient Jews believed in the resurrection of the dead.
Now, Luke 16:22 concerns a beggar named Lazarus who was begging at the gate of an unidentified rich man. Verse 22, “It came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died and was buried.”
What does Luke mean by, “Carried off into Abraham’s bosom?” Matthew 8:11 tells us “Many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.” This may allude to Luke 22:29-30 when Jesus spoke to his disciples at the Last Supper. “I appoint unto you a kingdom as my Father hath appointed unto me; that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
As for the rich man, “He lifts up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, with Lazarus in his bosom.” Because he is a Jew, he cries out, “Father Abraham have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.”
We know the man's body of flesh was buried in the ground, so what part of him remained that was able to see, hear, thirst, feel pain, and speak? The part of him that was in hell was his spirit and soul because of his pride, selfishness, and lack of compassion.
What’s going to happen to him? He will stand before the judgment seat of the LORD, but not until after the 1000-year reign of Christ ends. Revelation 20:5, “The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.” Verse 12, “And I (John) saw the dead, small and great, stand before God, and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of these things which were written in the books, according to their works. Verse 13, “An they were judged every man according to their works.” From there, they will suffer the second death in the lake of fire. It’s not physical death, it’s spiritual death.
What about Lazarus? 1 Thessalonians 4:16, “The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:” His body will no longer hunger or be covered with sores. Neither will our sickness and disease be with us. No cancer, diabetes, high blood pressure, poor eyesight, heart, lung, kidney or liver diseases. We will possess a perfect body, the body we were intended to have before the fall of Adam and Eve.
1 Corinthians 15:52, “In the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
Body, soul and spirit
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placebofactor
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Re: Body, soul and spirit
Post #61That's not science. It is one man's opinion. That burst of energy has nothing to do with anything leaving the body. A person IS a soul---he doesn't HAVE one. (Genesis 2:7) Animals are souls. Do some studying of that fact. It's all there in the Bible. The "soul" includes the body. It is everything about an individual. There are living souls and dead souls. The souls can die. (Ezekiel 18:4) The "spirit" is the breath of God that keeps a person alive. When a person dies, the spirit goes back to God, if you will, because the future situation with that person is in God's hands. It's not a part of the person that consciously leaves a person at death.placebofactor wrote: ↑Thu Mar 06, 2025 5:16 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #10]
Found this article on the Internet today:
A mysterious burst of energy that happens in the brain as we die could be the soul leaving the body, according to an expert.
Dr Stuart Hameroff, anesthesiologist and professor at the University of Arizona recently discussed a study that captured the brain activity of clinically dead patients.
Now we have two witnesses, the Scriptures and science, that we have a body, soul, and spirit.
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7, KJV)
We have a body. It includes the soul. Nothing that leaves the body at death, except the life-giving breath of God. And I think that burst of energy is something besides the soul leaving the body.
And you said that the study was of clinically dead people. That is not totally dead. So the study doesn't mean anything to prove the soul leaves the body.-
placebofactor
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Re: Body, soul and spirit
Post #62[Replying to onewithhim in post #61]
What are inferences? An inference is a conclusion you reach based on evidence and reasoning, not something that is directly stated, but something you can figure out from clues. Think of it like being a detective for ideas.
Example: If someone walks in soaking wet and shakes off an umbrella, you might infer it’s raining outside—even if they don’t say it. Scientists infer what happened millions of years ago from fossils.
So, inferences are certain conclusions that can be legitimately reasoned out when words are explained properly. Then, those who read them can form a correct Biblical view of Christian doctrines, works, and actions that may be required of us.
From any conclusions we may form, we are authorized to do so by the unique characteristics of the Hebrew and Greek languages. When these characteristics are correctly examined and understood, both what the words imply in themselves and what may be reasoned from them through legitimate cause-and-effect relationships become clear. Additionally, we can draw these conclusions by the authority of Jesus Christ and His apostles, who approved this practice through their examples.
Let's look at Matthew 22:23-32. When disputing with the Sadducees, Jesus cited the declaration of God recorded in Exodus 3:6: "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." From this verse, He inferred the resurrection of the dead—lawful deductions based on reason.
Abraham had been dead for more than 500 years before these words were spoken to Moses; Jehovah called Himself the God of Abraham. Jesus correctly observed, "God is not the God of the dead" (Matthew 22:32).
This word, (dead), being understood by the Sadducees to mean eternal annihilation, implies that if He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, then these men had not been destroyed but their bodies would one day be resurrected, while their souls and spirits remained alive in the bosom of God, even though they had long ceased to be among the living.
What are inferences? An inference is a conclusion you reach based on evidence and reasoning, not something that is directly stated, but something you can figure out from clues. Think of it like being a detective for ideas.
Example: If someone walks in soaking wet and shakes off an umbrella, you might infer it’s raining outside—even if they don’t say it. Scientists infer what happened millions of years ago from fossils.
So, inferences are certain conclusions that can be legitimately reasoned out when words are explained properly. Then, those who read them can form a correct Biblical view of Christian doctrines, works, and actions that may be required of us.
From any conclusions we may form, we are authorized to do so by the unique characteristics of the Hebrew and Greek languages. When these characteristics are correctly examined and understood, both what the words imply in themselves and what may be reasoned from them through legitimate cause-and-effect relationships become clear. Additionally, we can draw these conclusions by the authority of Jesus Christ and His apostles, who approved this practice through their examples.
Let's look at Matthew 22:23-32. When disputing with the Sadducees, Jesus cited the declaration of God recorded in Exodus 3:6: "I am the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." From this verse, He inferred the resurrection of the dead—lawful deductions based on reason.
Abraham had been dead for more than 500 years before these words were spoken to Moses; Jehovah called Himself the God of Abraham. Jesus correctly observed, "God is not the God of the dead" (Matthew 22:32).
This word, (dead), being understood by the Sadducees to mean eternal annihilation, implies that if He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, then these men had not been destroyed but their bodies would one day be resurrected, while their souls and spirits remained alive in the bosom of God, even though they had long ceased to be among the living.
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onewithhim
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Re: Body, soul and spirit
Post #63Yes, that's what I've been saying. Hebrew and Greek have "unique characteristics." Neither one can be translated according to English characteristics. They are different languages and cannot be translated word-for-word into English. There are certain rules in translating them into English. Greek uses articles to get meaning across. Where there is an article, that means the subject is unique and basically the only one, such as "the god. (No capital letters or punctuation in the Greek.) When there is no article, the subject may be one of many. In English, also, we must add an article to make the meaning clear. We don't say "Snoopy is dog," we have to add the article and say, "Snoopy is a dog." IMHO, this is the result of correctly examining the characteristics of the languages. This is applied to John 1:1 as well.placebofactor wrote: ↑Tue Jul 01, 2025 6:11 pm [Replying to onewithhim in post #61]
What are inferences? An inference is a conclusion you reach based on evidence and reasoning, not something that is directly stated, but something you can figure out from clues. Think of it like being a detective for ideas.
Example: If someone walks in soaking wet and shakes off an umbrella, you might infer it’s raining outside—even if they don’t say it. Scientists infer what happened millions of years ago from fossils.
So, inferences are certain conclusions that can be legitimately reasoned out when words are explained properly. Then, those who read them can form a correct Biblical view of Christian doctrines, works, and actions that may be required of us.
From any conclusions we may form, we are authorized to do so by the unique characteristics of the Hebrew and Greek languages. When these characteristics are correctly examined and understood, both what the words imply in themselves and what may be reasoned from them through legitimate cause-and-effect relationships become clear. Additionally, we can draw these conclusions by the authority of Jesus Christ and His apostles, who approved this practice through their examples.
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onewithhim
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Re: Body, soul and spirit
Post #64[Replying to placebofactor in post #62]
There is nothing to indicate that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob's spirits were alive and consciously with God in heaven. The scripture says that Jehovah is the God of the living, because they are all living to Him. This refers to the fact that He remembers every detail of them and His Son will resurrect them one day, "at the last day." No where does it say that they come back from heaven to rejoin their bodies. When one examines these verses and refrains from adding to them, such as saying their conscious spirits go to be with God, one can see that people die and are in their graves until the Resurrection.
"The dead are conscious of nothing at all." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
There is nothing to indicate that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob's spirits were alive and consciously with God in heaven. The scripture says that Jehovah is the God of the living, because they are all living to Him. This refers to the fact that He remembers every detail of them and His Son will resurrect them one day, "at the last day." No where does it say that they come back from heaven to rejoin their bodies. When one examines these verses and refrains from adding to them, such as saying their conscious spirits go to be with God, one can see that people die and are in their graves until the Resurrection.
"The dead are conscious of nothing at all." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
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FruitoftheSpirit
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Re: Body, soul and spirit
Post #65Your description of the three parts of man comes from the ideas of Greek Philosophers (Socrates and Plato) to which were quite popularly believed. The Roman Catholic church doctrine to which much of the same is held within other church doctrines was founded upon pagan converts who interpreted scripture and also translated it through their previously held beliefs.placebofactor wrote: ↑Sun Dec 01, 2024 1:48 pm The Bible tells us that we are made of three parts. We have a body of flesh made to live on earth, to think, eat, drink, sleep, and die. It's a fleshly body that covers our spiritual body and soul. The spiritual body and soul are made to honor and worship God. Now, that’s a mouthful and covers a great deal of ground. When we die, our bodies are returned to the ground.
Genesis 3:19, For out of it (the ground) were you taken, for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return.”
Question, “What happens to a man’s soul, and spirit?” Answer: The saved go to be with the Lord, for those who reject the saving grace of Jesus Christ, they will find themselves in a place called Hades.
The following occurred before Jesus was put to death, and before the church age began. Jesus is speaking to the Jews, the publicans, Pharisees, scribes, and sinners. He spoke of things the Jewish elite and the people believed and understood. The ancient Jews believed in the resurrection of the dead.
Now, Luke 16:22 concerns a beggar named Lazarus who was begging at the gate of an unidentified rich man. Verse 22, “It came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died and was buried.”
What does Luke mean by, “Carried off into Abraham’s bosom?” Matthew 8:11 tells us “Many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.” This may allude to Luke 22:29-30 when Jesus spoke to his disciples at the Last Supper. “I appoint unto you a kingdom as my Father hath appointed unto me; that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
As for the rich man, “He lifts up his eyes, being in torments, and sees Abraham afar off, with Lazarus in his bosom.” Because he is a Jew, he cries out, “Father Abraham have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.”
We know the man's body of flesh was buried in the ground, so what part of him remained that was able to see, hear, thirst, feel pain, and speak? The part of him that was in hell was his spirit and soul because of his pride, selfishness, and lack of compassion.
What’s going to happen to him? He will stand before the judgment seat of the LORD, but not until after the 1000-year reign of Christ ends. Revelation 20:5, “The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.” Verse 12, “And I (John) saw the dead, small and great, stand before God, and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of these things which were written in the books, according to their works. Verse 13, “An they were judged every man according to their works.” From there, they will suffer the second death in the lake of fire. It’s not physical death, it’s spiritual death.
What about Lazarus? 1 Thessalonians 4:16, “The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:” His body will no longer hunger or be covered with sores. Neither will our sickness and disease be with us. No cancer, diabetes, high blood pressure, poor eyesight, heart, lung, kidney or liver diseases. We will possess a perfect body, the body we were intended to have before the fall of Adam and Eve.
1 Corinthians 15:52, “In the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
In the OT the word soul is nep̄eš (nephesh) representing anything that God created that has life. Man, mammals, birds, etc are all nephesh.
You provided, Genesis 3:19, For out of it the ground were you taken, for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return.”
Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work. 18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? 22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?
Eccl 9:5 -the dead know nothing
Eccl 9:10 – whatever your hands finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going
Psalms 146:1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul (nephesh). 2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. 3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Job 27:8 –for what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he may gain much, if God takes away his soul
Job 33:22- yea his soul draweth near unto the grave
Psalm 49:15 –God redeem my soul from the power of the grave
Psalm 89: 48-Should he deliver his soul from the power of the grave
Psalm 33:19 -deliver their soul from death
Isaiah 55:3- hear and your soul shall live
Lev 23:30- and whatsoever soul it be that doeth work in that same day, the same soul I will destroy.
The concept of soul that can separate from your body after you die and enter into an afterlife is pagan, it is of Greek, Roman and Egyptian belief as well as others. This soul does not exist in scripture, people are confused because it was used in translation. What does exist in scripture is that when a human dies they completely cease to exist anything else is vanity. The concept of an "immortal soul" is vanity.
We see in scripture that which was translated as soul and spirit regarding man reflects the man's thoughts, emotions, desires, wisdom and knowledge all that which comes out of the brain, specifically the cerebrum and the limbic system, you know the frontal lobe, temporal lobe, etc..
When you die your brain dies too and hence why all your thoughts and plans perish and why when you go to the grave you cannot praise God. What is most fascinating is that we now know that as you acquire experiences and thus memories and knowledge your DNA changes reflecting these. I believe I read that all DNA that has ever existed could fit into a teaspoon. Is it not obvious that our unique code is that which God uses to resurrect us?
Which brings me to another point, we are resurrected from the dead, we are not taken from an afterlife and reunited with a body. Further, death is referred to as sleep and in the resurrection we will awake, some to reward and some to punishment. Sleep most certainly does not equate to existing in an afterlife. Christian doctrine just like pagans declare you are separated from your body and at that time you are judged and receive a reward or a punishment to then immediately enter into.
Just as soul is a very poor translation likewise hell and hades are terrible translations. Just as the concept of soul that is held within both pagan and Christian beliefs is totally fake, the works of man's imagination, so in fact is the concept of hell/hades.
When you die, as scripture makes it clear you cease to exist, as you cease to exist the only place you can go is to the grave to decay or into a fire to be consumed and be reduced to ash.
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Proverbs 12:28 In the way of righteousness is life; and in the pathway thereof there is no death.
Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Death and life are opposite of each other, you either have one or the other. This in and of itself makes the concept of an immortal soul impossible, it's pure vanity, it's nonsensical.
Isaiah 26:14- They are dead, they will not live; They are deceased they will not rise. Therefore you have punished and destroyed them. And have made all their memory to perish.
Very clear death does not equate to merely going to exist into a different life in a different form. Being deceased certainly doesn't mean you are just living somewhere else. Being destroyed certainly doesn't mean you are just living somewhere else existing in some other form.
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world...46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
The question to ask here is what is the punishment? The answer is death which scripture makes it clear death is to cease to exist and it is this punishment of death that is eternal.
In Young’s Literal Translation, you won’t even find the word hell, but instead you will find the word Gehenna. In the Old Testament you find the words, grave, sheol and pit, to represent where the dead go.
In the New Testament Jesus Christ portrays the place of death as Gehenna, which represents the Valley of Hinnom where Jerusalem’s city dump was and where fire was continually burning to CONSUME garbage and help rid the horrible smells. The idea of hell representing a place for immortal souls to be eternally punished is pagan, the imagination of men, it is not biblical. Jesus Christ in Matthew 10: 28 says fear God who can DESTROY both soul and body in Gehenna. Your life, your body is destroyed eternally.
1 Cor 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
Enemies under his feet represent dust and ash which is an eternal punishment, there is no coming back, no more resurrections.
If I understood you correctly seems like you believe that there is an immortal soul with the first death but not with the second, interesting.
One must find truth through the sum of all scripture which brings us to Luke 16 and the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Was Jesus speaking of real people or was it a parable? Was the purpose of Jesus's story to teach of an afterlife? Would this not create contradiction to all the scriptures that I provided that speak of death as ceasing to exist, where death is the opposite to life where in thus death does not equate to just another form of life where an immortal soul can exist?
I found a great article regarding the rich man and Lazarus I will provide in another post.
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FruitoftheSpirit
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Re: Body, soul and spirit
Post #66"The Rich Man and Lazarus
Posted on November 10, 2015
A Commentary by Sean Finnegan
The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is perhaps the most difficult section of Scripture for those of us who hold to the belief called conditional immortality (the understanding that immortality is contingent on the resurrection not on the existence of an immortal soul). Before we take a look at the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus I think it would be best to review the Scriptures that speak about the state of the dead.
The dead are unconscious.
Ecclesiastes 9.5-6, 10
For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun… Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.
The dead are not able to praise God or give him thanks.
Psalm 6.4-5
Return, O LORD, rescue my soul; Save me because of Your lovingkindness. For there is no mention of You in death; In Sheol who will give You thanks?
Psalm 30.9
“What profit is there in my blood, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise You? Will it declare Your faithfulness?
Psalm 115.17
The dead do not praise the LORD, Nor do any who go down into silence;
Psalm 146.4
His spirit [or “breath”] departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
The primary metaphor used to describe death in the Scriptures is “sleep,” which connotes the ideas of inactivity and unconsciousness.
Psalm 13.3
Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,
Acts 7.60
Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.
Acts 13.36
“For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and was laid among his fathers and underwent decay;”
1 Corinthians 15.17-20
And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied. But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
The solution to the problem of death is resurrection at the return of Christ.
Daniel 12.2
“Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.”
John 5.28-29
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.”
1 Corinthians 15.20-23
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
1 Thessalonians 4.13-17
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
Many more Scriptures could be given to substantiate the viewpoint that the dead are asleep until the resurrection. Putting this all together we get the following understanding:
The New Bible Dictionary,
(Wheaton, IL: Tyndale 1982), p. 346.
The Christian hope for life beyond death is not based on the belief that part of man survives death. All men through their descent from Adam are naturally mortal. Immortality is the gift of God which will be attained through resurrection of the whole person…The Bible therefore takes death seriously, it is not an illusion. It is the consequence of sin and evil…It is seen as sleep from which one will awaken.
We are not innately immortal because of some indestructible soul; rather we depend on resurrection to become immortal. We know that the resurrection will occur when Christ returns
(1 Corinthians 15.21-23). In the meantime, the dead are unconscious; they are asleep, until the return of our Lord to awaken them to the life of the coming age (John 5.28-29). Now, with this foundation in place, let’s take a look at the account of the Rich Man and Lazarus which is found in Luke chapter sixteen.
Luke 16.19-31
19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20 “And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25 “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’
27 “And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house– 28 for I have five brothers– in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 “But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Some argue that this is not a parable because (1) it starts with the phrase “a certain man.” But this assertion is groundless because the parable of the Unjust Steward in Luke 16.1 starts just this way. A second reason given that this is not a parable is (2) that it never calls itself a parable. But, 11 out of the 26 parables in Luke’s Gospel do not self identify as parables. A third reason given that this is not a parable is that (3) Lazarus is named. However, Lazarus means “God has helped,” which would certainly be an appropriate fictitious name considering the irony of the story.
Some observations about this parable.
(adapted from Wrested Scriptures by R. Abel, pages 107-110, also available online at www.wrestedscriptures.com/b03hell/luke16v19-31.html)
No mention is made of either “heaven” or “hell”
No mention is made of “souls”
If taken literally of someone’s soul going off to Abraham’s bosom there is a problem because the passage speaks of bodies not disembodied souls
Body parts mentioned include eyes, the tip of a finger, and the tongue
If souls are immaterial then how can they be carried by the angels?
If there is a great chasm or gulf fixed between Abraham’s bosom and hades, how is it that they can see across it and converse with each other effortlessly?
Just imagine living forever within ear shot of the agonizing screams of the tortured. Would that not be torture itself?
If taken literally then we have a contradiction with Hebrews 11.8,13, 39-40 because there it says that Abraham has not yet received his reward. (Note that Hebrews was written decades after Jesus told this parable).
If one is being tormented in flames of fire, would he ask for just a drop of water?
If the righteous dead go to Abraham’s bosom at death, then what about those who died before Abraham? Did Noah go to Abraham’s bosom at death?
If one takes into account the fact that the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable not a literal account, then all of these problems go away. Edward Fudge is insightful when he says,
Two Views of Hell, (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2000), p. 41.
Few serious interpreters attempt to make the details of the story literal. To do so would require us to imagine the saved and lost conversing with each other after death in full view of each other and at close range. We also would have to think of literal tongues that burn with literal fire and literal water that does not cool them. Not to mention physical bodies that can be tortured by fire but which somehow do not burn up."
Posted on November 10, 2015
A Commentary by Sean Finnegan
The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is perhaps the most difficult section of Scripture for those of us who hold to the belief called conditional immortality (the understanding that immortality is contingent on the resurrection not on the existence of an immortal soul). Before we take a look at the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus I think it would be best to review the Scriptures that speak about the state of the dead.
The dead are unconscious.
Ecclesiastes 9.5-6, 10
For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun… Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going.
The dead are not able to praise God or give him thanks.
Psalm 6.4-5
Return, O LORD, rescue my soul; Save me because of Your lovingkindness. For there is no mention of You in death; In Sheol who will give You thanks?
Psalm 30.9
“What profit is there in my blood, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise You? Will it declare Your faithfulness?
Psalm 115.17
The dead do not praise the LORD, Nor do any who go down into silence;
Psalm 146.4
His spirit [or “breath”] departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
The primary metaphor used to describe death in the Scriptures is “sleep,” which connotes the ideas of inactivity and unconsciousness.
Psalm 13.3
Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,
Acts 7.60
Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them!” Having said this, he fell asleep.
Acts 13.36
“For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and was laid among his fathers and underwent decay;”
1 Corinthians 15.17-20
And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied. But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
The solution to the problem of death is resurrection at the return of Christ.
Daniel 12.2
“Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.”
John 5.28-29
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.”
1 Corinthians 15.20-23
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,
1 Thessalonians 4.13-17
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
Many more Scriptures could be given to substantiate the viewpoint that the dead are asleep until the resurrection. Putting this all together we get the following understanding:
The New Bible Dictionary,
(Wheaton, IL: Tyndale 1982), p. 346.
The Christian hope for life beyond death is not based on the belief that part of man survives death. All men through their descent from Adam are naturally mortal. Immortality is the gift of God which will be attained through resurrection of the whole person…The Bible therefore takes death seriously, it is not an illusion. It is the consequence of sin and evil…It is seen as sleep from which one will awaken.
We are not innately immortal because of some indestructible soul; rather we depend on resurrection to become immortal. We know that the resurrection will occur when Christ returns
(1 Corinthians 15.21-23). In the meantime, the dead are unconscious; they are asleep, until the return of our Lord to awaken them to the life of the coming age (John 5.28-29). Now, with this foundation in place, let’s take a look at the account of the Rich Man and Lazarus which is found in Luke chapter sixteen.
Luke 16.19-31
19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20 “And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.
22 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25 “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’
27 “And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house– 28 for I have five brothers– in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 “But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 “But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Some argue that this is not a parable because (1) it starts with the phrase “a certain man.” But this assertion is groundless because the parable of the Unjust Steward in Luke 16.1 starts just this way. A second reason given that this is not a parable is (2) that it never calls itself a parable. But, 11 out of the 26 parables in Luke’s Gospel do not self identify as parables. A third reason given that this is not a parable is that (3) Lazarus is named. However, Lazarus means “God has helped,” which would certainly be an appropriate fictitious name considering the irony of the story.
Some observations about this parable.
(adapted from Wrested Scriptures by R. Abel, pages 107-110, also available online at www.wrestedscriptures.com/b03hell/luke16v19-31.html)
No mention is made of either “heaven” or “hell”
No mention is made of “souls”
If taken literally of someone’s soul going off to Abraham’s bosom there is a problem because the passage speaks of bodies not disembodied souls
Body parts mentioned include eyes, the tip of a finger, and the tongue
If souls are immaterial then how can they be carried by the angels?
If there is a great chasm or gulf fixed between Abraham’s bosom and hades, how is it that they can see across it and converse with each other effortlessly?
Just imagine living forever within ear shot of the agonizing screams of the tortured. Would that not be torture itself?
If taken literally then we have a contradiction with Hebrews 11.8,13, 39-40 because there it says that Abraham has not yet received his reward. (Note that Hebrews was written decades after Jesus told this parable).
If one is being tormented in flames of fire, would he ask for just a drop of water?
If the righteous dead go to Abraham’s bosom at death, then what about those who died before Abraham? Did Noah go to Abraham’s bosom at death?
If one takes into account the fact that the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable not a literal account, then all of these problems go away. Edward Fudge is insightful when he says,
Two Views of Hell, (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2000), p. 41.
Few serious interpreters attempt to make the details of the story literal. To do so would require us to imagine the saved and lost conversing with each other after death in full view of each other and at close range. We also would have to think of literal tongues that burn with literal fire and literal water that does not cool them. Not to mention physical bodies that can be tortured by fire but which somehow do not burn up."
