The Bible God, the Law Breaker

[POI]

God is claimed to break "natural law" all the time, by walking on water, turning water into wine, raising the rotting dead, turning humans into salt, etc...

For Debate: Does God break all "law", or just some "law"? And if only some, why only some, and not all? Further, what is the point of breaking some "law", and not others? Or maybe, God breaks all "laws", which is why the Bible is illogical, immoral, and defies later human discovery?

Before you answer, a running theme is expressed among many theists... When a skeptic asks a theist, 'can God do anything?", the theist might respond with, "God can only do what is logically possible and/or what is in his moral nature". In essence, God strictly abides by some "law", but not others? By "law", I'm referencing natural law, the laws of logic, moral law, mathematics, and any others I may have missed. I trust you get the gist...?

[POI]

[Replying to bjs1 in post #29]


You know EXACLY what I'm talking about here bjs1. It's funny how theists are really good at referencing context, until it is no longer useful for them.

[RBD]

By "law", I'm referencing natural law, the laws of logic, moral law, mathematics, and any others I may have missed. I trust you get the gist...?

The accusation of God being a law-breaker, is nothing new. Jesus Christ in the flesh disproves that God can't keep His own law as a man. Other than false accusations, there is no record in the Bible of God breaking His own law.

Jas 1:13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Moral law is made by man. God is not subject to man's law. Nor should men subject themselves to any and every law man may make.

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Natural law is a philosophical law of man. God is not subject to man's natural philosophy. Not should all men subject themselves to it.

Scientific laws, such as that of first thermodynamics, is a law explained by man against creation. Creation and other acts of spiritual power over nature, would only prove scientific laws are not immutable, and ought only be called working principles. 'Breaking' a scientific law is illogical, since it's not a law in fact, if it can be overruled.

And so, the only law that God could break, is His own law of commandments, which He is not recorded doing in the Bible. Nor is there any mathematical error in the Bible.

So, other than the loyalty to man's law, and the nonsense of 'breaking' natural philosophy, scientific law, and math, then it's just another false accusation of God in the Bible, not keeping His own law of commandments written therein.

[POI]

[Replying to RBD in post #32]

I think we are addressing differing things here. Allow me to re-explain....

Theists will say 'God cannot do anything which is "logically impossible." Is this because he can't, because a) he too is bound by this 'law of logic', or is it instead because b) he won't or simply chooses not to for some reason or another?. Please address a) or b) and explain. Thanks.

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #32]

I think we are addressing differing things here. Allow me to re-explain....

Theists will say 'God cannot do anything which is "logically impossible."

I never say that, because it then makes man the arbiter of logic with God. Rather, it's impossible for God to be bound by any logic of man.

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Is this because he can't, because a) he too is bound by this 'law of logic', or is it instead because b) he won't or simply chooses not to for some reason or another?.

Since God is not bound by any law of man, then He does anything He so chooses, whether any man likes it or not.

I.e. you can say something recorded of God in the Bible, is illogical. The God of the Bible says, so what?

Isa 40:13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or being his counsellor hath taught him?

Dittoes for believers in the God of the Bible like me. When any person on earth proves they have power over creation, then they can determine what law of logic to be bound by...

[POI]

[Replying to RBD in post #32]

I think we are addressing differing things here. Allow me to re-explain....

Theists will say 'God cannot do anything which is "logically impossible."

I never say that, because it then makes man the arbiter of logic with God. Rather, it's impossible for God to be bound by any logic of man.

We are still on differing pages here. There is a reason I place these 'laws' in quotes. Allow me to explain even further...

Humans do not create any of these "laws". Humans merely identify that such 'laws' exist and attempt to explore these 'lawful boundaries.' Thus far, the 'laws of logic' possess such boundaries.

Asking anew...

Is God bound by these boundaries or not? If yes, then he is not all powerful. Meaning, he breaks some "law", but not others. If no, then why doesn't God break the "laws of logic"? Or, maybe God does, which is why the Bible is not logically consistent? -- (case/point, see post 36 where he does just this...)

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #32]

Jesus Christ in the flesh disproves that God can't keep His own law as a man.

Jas 1:13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Then how can Jesus have been God if he was "tempted in every way, just as we are" (Hebrews 4:15)?

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #32]

I think we are addressing differing things here. Allow me to re-explain....

Theists will say 'God cannot do anything which is "logically impossible."

I never say that, because it then makes man the arbiter of logic with God. Rather, it's impossible for God to be bound by any logic of man.

We are still on differing pages here. There is a reason I place these 'laws' in quotes. Allow me to explain even further...

Humans do not create any of these "laws".

This would only apply to laws of science. Which are proven not to be immutable, if spiritual power of creation and action over nature exists.

Ex: the First law of thermodynamic is only without creation. If there is creation, then the law is only a principle, not immutable law.

What we have is people identifying principles, that they presently call laws, only so long as they believe all things are subject to nature.

Humans merely identify that such 'laws' exist and attempt to explore these 'lawful boundaries.'

And any laws that exist in nature, are made for nature within the boundaries of nature alone.

And any works and actions that are not by nature, prove those laws only exist for natural things. They are natural principles, not immutable eternal laws over all things.

This also applies to logic. The fact that people can be 'illogical' proves logic is not an immutable law, that all nature must obey. Since people can have the spiritual power to act by faith, seemingly contrary to all laws and nature and logic, it proves they are only natural observable principles, that only apply to natural things, not all things.

And with logic, since it's only by observation, then it can also be arbitrary according to the observer. As the saying goes, "One man's treasure, is another man's trash..."

Thus far, the 'laws of logic' possess such boundaries.

Whose laws of logic? Logic is creative, not natural, because only spiritual beings comprehend logic. Science, math, etc...has logic, but is not ruled by it. Some scientific and mathematical theories defy logic.

And the boundaries of logic are only defined by people's own logical 'law'. The boundaries of your logic, are not mine. You limt your logic to the natural boundaries, that you can see, taste, touch, etc... Not me. When you show power over nature, that is ruled by your logic, then you can declare your logic as immutable law.

So, what logic do you have, that the Bible 'violates'. You see the bias of your own claim?

Is God bound by these boundaries or not?

Already said no. Not changed. What you call scientific law, can also only be natural principles confined to nature. What you call law of logic, is by your own personal will. It's your own logical boundaries. And they are limited only to natural physical understanding.

I.e. you're only presenting a personal view of law without any faith beyond natural boundaries. Since we also have self-aware creative imagination apart from nature, then such natural logic is very limited to one's own natural mind:

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #32]

Jesus Christ in the flesh disproves that God can't keep His own law as a man.

Jas 1:13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Then how can Jesus have been God if he was "tempted in every way, just as we are" (Hebrews 4:15)?

It's a very good question, that many Bible believers fail to acknowledge. However, it's a question of doctrine, not of logic. I.e. when I show the doctrinal resolution that the Bible gives, it would then be unbelief to deny it, not a matter of logic.

It's a simple matter of location: James 1 is speaking of God on the throne in heaven, who is Spirit, and not a man on earth. But Jesus was God in the flesh, and so tempted the same as all men in the flesh:

Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Heb{5:8} Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


These things show why He was tempted on earth, which is by coming in the flesh of man. The man Jesus was not God on earth, but God in the flesh on earth. Not being God in heaven at the time, He could therefore be tempted like all people on earth.

These things also show why it was necessary for Him to lay down His power as God in heaven, and come to earth in the flesh, so as to be tempted on earth like all men. In order to be made the example on earth of suffering temptation without disobeying the law of God, and able therefore to help others do the same.

Even the prophets understood 'illogic' if you would, of the all-powerful God in heaven, commanding people of flesh and blood to be holy on earth, as He is holy in heaven.

Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Now, this can all make perfect sense and logic to anyone. Therefore, logic is not the argument, but faith, which does not have to be bound by the arbitrary logic of natural-minded people.

[POI]

[Replying to RBD in post #37]

We are still talking passed one another. Let's try this, yet again. Take "mathematics", as I also referenced in the OP. Can God make 1 + 1 equal anything other than 2?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #38]

The man Jesus was not God on earth, but God in the flesh on earth. Not being God in heaven at the time, He could therefore be tempted like all people on earth.

If God cannot be tempted, then no one who can be tempted can be fully God.