The Bible God, the Law Breaker

[POI]

God is claimed to break "natural law" all the time, by walking on water, turning water into wine, raising the rotting dead, turning humans into salt, etc...

For Debate: Does God break all "law", or just some "law"? And if only some, why only some, and not all? Further, what is the point of breaking some "law", and not others? Or maybe, God breaks all "laws", which is why the Bible is illogical, immoral, and defies later human discovery?

Before you answer, a running theme is expressed among many theists... When a skeptic asks a theist, 'can God do anything?", the theist might respond with, "God can only do what is logically possible and/or what is in his moral nature". In essence, God strictly abides by some "law", but not others? By "law", I'm referencing natural law, the laws of logic, moral law, mathematics, and any others I may have missed. I trust you get the gist...?

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #58]

The Scripture is only broken, if it says God is never a man.

Does scripture which says that God is not a man (Numbers 23:19) and that God does not change (Malachi 3:6) have to say that God is never a man?

Also, the reference is not centered on being a man, but on not being a man that lies...

....because it's men who lie, not God.

Not all men, and never God. Not with the man Jesus on earth, nor now being the resurrected man Christ Jesus.

Circular argument.

The divine nature is untemptable with lust. The divine nature in natural flesh is temptable with the common trials of all people on earth, hunger, thirst, pain, suffering...

Hunger, thirst, pain and suffering are not temptations. When you go without eating, you're not tempted to feel hunger; you just do. If something heavy falls on you, you're not tempted to feel pain; you just do. In the story of Jesus in the wilderness, Satan isn't tempting Jesus to be hungry. He's tempting Jesus to go against scripture by turning stones into bread because Jesus is already hungry. Satan is using the human condition of hunger as a catalyst to introduce a temptation to disobey God.


Again, how does Jesus earn any merit for never doing evil if he was incapable of being tempted to do evil?

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #56]

Are you arguing that his faithful saints were themselves beyond temptation to sin?

Not beyond, but presently without, the same as Jesus, if we keep His faith and abide in His light

I assume that "presently without" means temporarily without.

Only if failing to stand fast with Jesus by His faith.

1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Rev 2:25
But that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Professionals are presently succeeding, and so continue to train and work faithfully to continue succeeding and fail not.

2 Pet 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Then his "faithful saints" would have been temptable with sin throughout their mortal lives, thus Jesus would have had to share that temptability in order to be tempted as they were.

No. Not with lust, but only with trials of life common to all flesh. The temptations of the lustful are not the trials of the faithful. Whether it be professionals in this life only, or saints of Jesus Christ forever...

1 Tim{4:8}
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

Only those tempted with lust don't need Him.

Only those tempted with lust don't need Him? Wouldn't those tempted with lust need him most of all?

"They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”
(Mark 2:17)

Not when being enticed by one's own lust. They only want satisfaction. No one is seeking God while seeking sin with lust.

God does not take lust away without our whole-hearted consent. The sick for Jesus, are the sick of lust and sin.

Adam and Eve were not asking God for any help, when they lusted and sinned:

Gen 3:6
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Hebrews 4:15 says that Jesus resisted the temptation to sin. It doesn't say that he wasn't tempted.

Heb 4:15 does not say that Jesus resisted the temptation to sin, and failed, and was tempted with sin.

You have to be tempted in order to resist temptation. If there's no temptation, there's nothing to resist and, thus, no merit in resisting.

Jesus was not tempted to sin, nor with lust, but was tried in obedience unto the uttermost on the cross.

An honest man is in a trial, when poor and hungry and standing at an outdoor market of food. A thief is tempted to sin, when spying a wallet in a purse. One is being tried in life, the other is being tempted with lust.

Lust is the desire to do evil, which the honest man does not have, but only the thief.

Eph 4:28
Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good...

With God, this is accomplished by Jesus Christ taking away the lust to do evil, so that the new man is now honest with God and men.

2Co 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,

Men's religions, philosophies, and rehabilitations, can indeed work to control the lust that remains in the heart. Only in the pure religion of the risen Lord Jesus Christ, is the lust taken away from the heart altogether.

Jhn 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world

Jas 1:27Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

If Jesus was incapable of being tempted with sin, would it not have been sinful for him to bow to Satan for worldly power during his "temptation" in the wilderness?

Uh, yes?

"Yes, what? "Yes", it would have been sinful....or "yes", it wouldn't have?

Uh yes, He would have sinned, if He had bowed down to the devil. He didn't, so He didn't sin. Are you saying He did bow down??

"For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities"

If our infirmities don't include our temptability,

Your temptability is not the same temptability of Jesus Christ and His saints. Until the difference between temptation of life's trials, vs temptation with lust, is acknowledged. Then temptability of the saints, and temptability of sinners will continue to be confused as the same. The temptations of the lusting sinners, is not the trials of the faithful.

If our infirmities don't include our temptability, then the Jesus you describe has nothing to offer the vast majority of humankind outside of his "faithful saints".

Jesus has no lust to offer any man. All He offers is taking lust away, which presently lusting sinners don't want taken away. The unrepentant don't want what Jesus has to offer, nor His help from lust.

There are false religions that offer lust with promise of life, if that's what they want to believe instead.

Hosea{7:8}
Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people; Ephraim is a cake not turned.

Rev 3:15
I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

There are those who know they are lusting sinners without God. And then there are those who believe they are with God, while lusting for sin. The Lord can help honest sinners that repent for His sake, but not the lukewarm naming His name.

But Mark 2:17 says that sinners [who are definitely temptable] are the ones he came to call. If he could not "be touched with the feeling" of those who were temptable by being temptable himself, then how does he deserve any praise for having lived a sinless life?

Once again. The feelings of lusting sinners, is not the same as the trials of faithful saints. Jesus was never touched with lust, nor the feeling of lusting.

So long as any lusting sinner quotes Scripture with their own lust in mind, then they will confuse temptation, temptability, and feeling of infirmity, as the same for all men, including Jesus Christ, as though all men are lusting sinners like themselves, including Jesus Christ...

Tit 1:15
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Bible temptation and feeling of infirmity of Jesus Christ and His obedient people, is not the same as that of people lusting for sin.

Jesus never sinned, nor lusted for sin, which was the divine nature of God in Him, that never changes, whether on the throne in heaven, or in the flesh on earth.

He came into this world as all newborn babes without lust, but unlike all men, He never lusted for sin. He kept Himself pure of heart on earth, the same as He was in heaven, and is now seated again in heaven. Being in the flesh as a man, He was tempted with trials of this life, but not with lust for sin.

[RBD]

The Lord doesn't put on shows.

Yes, he did. [/quote]
As I said. What men call shows, God calls daily power over nature.

He walked on water. How would this show love?

Read the context.

Or how about the "wedding at Cana"? One of the reasons Jesus turned water into wine was to demonstrate a sign of his glory, or put on a show, as indicated in (John 2:1–11).

No. The reason He did so, was because of the need at hand, that only He could fulfill. It also saved the sponsor of the feast from embarrassment.

In doing so, it also served to show forth His glory as God in man, with daily power over nature. Evderything He did was to fulfill honest need, whether health, social, financial, reputation, etc...

He did not put on shows for men's pleasure:

Mat 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

People only thinking of and looking for shows, accuse all people of just putting on a show, including Jesus Christ:

Tit 1:15
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.


In any case, the conclusion is that it's impossible to speak of immutable laws being 'broken', since not obeying them proves they are not immutable. And the natural man, that does not believe in the Spirit, can believe nature is all there is, but it doesn't make natural principles, immutable laws...

[POI]

What men call shows, God calls daily power over nature.

What, no power over other "laws", such as logic, morality, or mathematics?

Read the context.

The ONLY way to accomplish the said task here was to break an immutable law of nature?

The reason He did so, was because of the need at hand, that only He could fulfill. It also saved the sponsor of the feast from embarrassment.

In doing so, it also served to show forth His glory as God in man, with daily power over nature. Evderything He did was to fulfill honest need, whether health, social, financial, reputation, etc...

He did not put on shows for men's pleasure:

Again, the ONLY way to accomplish the said task here was to break an immutable law of nature?

In any case, the conclusion is that it's impossible to speak of immutable laws being 'broken', since not obeying them proves they are not immutable. And the natural man, that does not believe in the Spirit, can believe nature is all there is, but it doesn't make natural principles, immutable laws...

1) Walking on top of water is not breaking an immutable law?
2) Are you then saying Jesus, like humans, is also unable to break any immutable law(s)?

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #58]

The Scripture is only broken, if it says God is never a man.

Does scripture which says that God is not a man (Numbers 23:19) and that God does not change (Malachi 3:6) have to say that God is never a man?

Only if He is accused of lying when He becomes a man.

The divine nature is untemptable with lust. The divine nature in natural flesh is temptable with the common trials of all people on earth, hunger, thirst, pain, suffering...

Hunger, thirst, pain and suffering are not temptations.

Read again. Natural sufferings are no temptations, but are natural in this life. Trials under extreme conditions, to remain honest and steadfast in doing good, are temptations in the flesh on earth.

Temptations with lust to do evil, are only the temptations of the unrighteous and ungodly.

He's tempting Jesus to go against scripture by turning stones into bread because Jesus is already hungry.

Exactly. He was tempted during trials of extreme hunger, not to trust in the Father to supply His every need:

Mat 6:34
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

He spoke from experience.

However, He was not tempted to steal food, because He was not a lusting thief.

Satan is using the human condition of hunger as a catalyst to introduce a temptation to disobey God.

Exactly again. Well said:

Heb{5:8}
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Now that you show good understanding, between the difference in temptation trials of the righteous, vs temptations of the unrighteous to lust for sin, then there's no more argument about God not changing in character, while being tempted with trials in the flesh.

Again, how does Jesus earn any merit for never doing evil if he was incapable of being tempted to do evil?

Not incapable, but unmoveable.

All men are created in the image of God, with pure hearts from the womb. Therefore, unlike the animals, we have power to create our own lust against God. The same for the angels, which first sinned against God by lusting against His pure and good will:

Eze 28:14
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!...Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee...

Jesus Christ is the only man that came into the world pure, as all babes from the womb, who did not follow the devil into forming their own lust against God, and so enticed are by their own hearts to disobey Him in word and deed.

Nor did He fail to standfast with the Father in obedience to His command, while being tempted with all manner of natural trials in the flesh. First, He kept His heart pure from lust, and then as a good soldier obeyed the Commander in all things unto the end, including on the cross.

Heb{5:8}
Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Heb 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

He's now therefore the perfect example for any person on earth, to likewise keep our own hearts pure from lust of the world. But not only as a man in the flesh, but with help of His own faith and Spirit by resurrection from the dead:

2Co 5:17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Jas 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

1 John 5:18
We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.


You keep up this line of questioning, and you might find yourself thinking of repenting for Jesus' sake, and testing His promise of newborn purity and everlasting life, to them that now obey Son, as He obeyed the Father.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #65]

Does scripture which says that God is not a man (Numbers 23:19) and that God does not change (Malachi 3:6) have to say that God is never a man?

Only if He is accused of lying when He becomes a man.

How does scripture depend on what's said about a man?

Trials under extreme conditions, to remain honest and steadfast in doing good, are temptations in the flesh on earth.

Why are they trials to remain steadfast in doing good? Because they come with temptations to do bad. If there were no temptations, they wouldn't be trials.


He's tempting Jesus to go against scripture by turning stones into bread because Jesus is already hungry.

Exactly. He was tempted during trials

Here you've hit upon it. He was tempted during trials. The trials were not the temptation.

not to trust in the Father to supply His every need

The scripture he quotes is "Man shall not live by bread alone...". That's the command. The temptation is to disobey that command. In the story he has the power to turn stones into bread. If he couldn't do so, that would be just a trial----staying in the wilderness without food. His ability to change the condition by turning stones into bread presents an opportunity to disobey [sin], and that's what has to be resisted.

All men are created in the image of God, with pure hearts from the womb. Therefore, unlike the animals, we have power to create our own lust against God.

What we have the power to do is make free-will decisions where nonhuman creatures follow their instincts, which presents another problem for your position. By casting Jesus as incapable of being tempted with evil, you're saying that he had no free will. That, again, would disqualify him from being fully man.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to RBD in post #62]

Then his "faithful saints" would have been temptable with sin throughout their mortal lives, thus Jesus would have had to share that temptability in order to be tempted as they were.

No. Not with lust, but only with trials of life common to all flesh.

If "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23), then all the saints have sinned. To have sinned they must have been tempted with sin, thus for Jesus to be tempted as they were, he must have been tempted with sin as well.

Uh yes, He would have sinned, if He had bowed down to the devil. He didn't, so He didn't sin. Are you saying He did bow down??

Are you saying that he wasn't there to be tempted to bow down? If Jesus just sat there bored while Satan was trying to tempt him, he deserves no praise for resisting because there was no struggle for him. To employ a Tolkien analogy, you have Jesus going through his earthly life as Tom Bombadil----blithely immune to the call everyone else feels to put on the Ring and use its power.

Jesus never sinned, nor lusted for sin, which was the divine nature of God in Him, that never changes, whether on the throne in heaven, or in the flesh on earth.

Then he couldn't have had the temptable nature of man, which means that he couldn't be fully man.


Earlier, you said:

Anyone believing and saying they are 'beyond' temptation to sin, where they cannot possibly allow themselves to lust again, is deceiving themselves in this life, and ready for a fall by temptation with lust

Here again, if no one is ever beyond temptation to sin in this life, then the saints were never beyond temptation to sin in this life, which means that for Jesus to be tempted as the saints were, Jesus could not be beyond temptation to sin in this life.

[RBD]

What men call shows, God calls daily power over nature.

What, no power over other "laws", such as logic, morality, or mathematics?

Every person created in the image of God has power over logic, morality, and math. It's not using that power to corrupt logic, morality, and math, that is the sound mind and righteousness of God.

Having power over nature by the Spirit, proves natural principles are not immutable law.

Read the context.

The ONLY way to accomplish the said task here was to break an immutable law of nature?

Try again.

In any case, the conclusion is that it's impossible to speak of immutable laws being 'broken', since not obeying them proves they are not immutable. And the natural man, that does not believe in the Spirit, can believe nature is all there is, but it doesn't make natural principles, immutable laws...

1) Walking on top of water is not breaking an immutable law?

Obviously natural law is not immutable.

If natural law is immutable, then it can't be broken. If it does not hold in all cases, then it's not immutable law. Logic 101.

2) Are you then saying Jesus, like humans, is also unable to break any immutable law(s)?

He doesn't break immutable laws of logic, morality, and math...

He does change natural things, which proves natural principles, are not immutable laws. Such as walking on water...

[POI]

What men call shows, God calls daily power over nature.

What, no power over other "laws", such as logic, morality, or mathematics?

Every person created in the image of God has power over logic, morality, and math. It's not using that power to corrupt logic, morality, and math, that is the sound mind and righteousness of God.

We are clearly talking about differing things here. When I refer to 'power over', I instead mean 'not limited by' such immutable law.

Try again.

Allow me to "try again", as you are not tracking here. Was the ONLY way for Jesus to fulfill THIS particular situation, was for Jesus to 'walk on water'?

In any case, the conclusion is that it's impossible to speak of immutable laws being 'broken', since not obeying them proves they are not immutable.

Then the Bible is lying, as the law of buoyancy is an immutable law. If you wish to contribute to peer review, to the contrary of this established immutable law, please make sure you tell me how this goes for you. So, either:

a) Jesus walked on water, which violates immutable law. Or...
b) The Bible told an untrue story.

Please pick your poison, as in your particular case, there is no option c), or beyond.

He does change natural things, which proves natural principles, are not immutable laws. Such as walking on water...

This is my point. You are inducing special pleading for the "laws of nature", as Jesus is said to clearly break many immutable "natural law(s)".

[RBD]

[Replying to RBD in post #65]

Does scripture which says that God is not a man (Numbers 23:19) and that God does not change (Malachi 3:6) have to say that God is never a man?

Only if He is accused of lying when He becomes a man.

How does scripture depend on what's said about a man?

Correction by Scripture depends on men saying false things about Scripture. Such as when Scripture it taken out of context, to say other than what the Book teaches. Accurate teaching of Scripture in context is then necessary to correct it.

It can also be said, that Scripture is indeed written in such a way, so as to snare such false teachers in their own bad readings:

Job 5:13
He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong.

2Co 4:2
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.

For instance, the Scripture could have accurately said at the time, that God was not yet a man, which would prophecy Jesus Christ coming in the flesh. But, it was honest to simply say at the time, God is not a man, that He should lie... Anyone then taking it out of context, in order to say that God is never a man, is easily ensnared in their own erroneous reading.

He's tempting Jesus to go against scripture by turning stones into bread because Jesus is already hungry.

Exactly. He was tempted during trials

Here you've hit upon it. He was tempted during trials. The trials were not the temptation.

The temptation during trial of life was not with lust to do evil. Else He'd done evil by lust with the temptation.

not to trust in the Father to supply His every need

The scripture he quotes is "Man shall not live by bread alone...". That's the command. The temptation is to disobey that command. In the story he has the power to turn stones into bread. If he couldn't do so, that would be just a trial----staying in the wilderness without food. His ability to change the condition by turning stones into bread presents an opportunity to disobey [sin], and that's what has to be resisted.

The temptation to disobey a command during trials of hardship, is not the temptation with lust to do evil.

Gen 3:6
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Luk 22:42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.


Adam and Eve lusted from an evil heart. Jesus Christ was tempted with willingness to use His own power for His own life. Preserving life on earth is not a sin, nor is saving life a lust to do evil:

Jhn 10:17
Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

God the Son had power on earth to make stone into bread, and call on angels to defend Him. In both cases, He had the power and right to do so, being innocent of lust and sin.

In fact, Jesus preserved His life several times, before it was His time to lay it down, not for Himself nor the Father, but for the guilty:

Luk 4:28
And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath, And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong. But he passing through the midst of them went his way,



His obedience was for our sake, not for His own, else He had not died on a cross.

Comparing the trials of Jesus Christ the righteous to obey the Father, and die for our sins, with the temptations of a lusting sinner to do evil, is a false accusation against the righteous. It's the thief that accuses the righteous tempted by hard trials, of being as guilty as the thief accused of stealing:

Tit 1:15
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

which presents another problem for your position. By casting Jesus as incapable of being tempted with evil, you're saying that he had no free will. That, again, would disqualify him from being fully man.

Casting Jesus as incapable of being tempted with evil, is the problem of changing the teaching.

Incapable of receiving lust unto oneself, is only with God in heaven. On earth, Jesus Christ and the righteous are unmoved to lust after sin:

1Co 15:58
Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

Free will is being created in the image of God on earth, with power to create one's own lust to do evil. Free will unmoved by trials to create one's own lust, is the power of Jesus Christ:

Phl 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Col 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: