God as the foundation of logic (logos)

[Vilferatus]

God as the Foundation of Logic

Thesis

God is the ultimate foundation of logical truth and rational inference.

By “foundation,” I mean that logical truths are not merely human conventions or contingent features of our minds, but have an objective and necessary basis in reality. The question is whether that basis is ultimately grounded in God.

I am interested in debating this question philosophically, rather than assuming the conclusion from biblical authority.

The central question

If logical principles are objectively true and necessarily valid—for example:

- A proposition cannot be both true and false in the same respect at the same time.
- If A = B and B = C, then A = C.
- Contradictory propositions cannot both be true in the same sense.

then what ultimately accounts for the necessity, universality, and objectivity of these principles?

My position is that God provides the ultimate foundation for them.

The challenge

I would like someone who disagrees to defend an alternative account.

For example:

1. Are logical truths necessary independently of God?
2. If so, in what sense are they “necessary”?
3. What is the ontological status of logical truths?
4. Why should these truths apply universally to reality rather than merely describe the way human minds reason?
5. If logic exists independently of God, does this mean that there is something necessary and fundamental that God did not establish or create?
6. If logic is instead grounded in God's nature, does that make logic arbitrary, or is God's nature necessarily logical?

I am particularly interested in whether a non-theistic account can explain the objectivity and necessity of logic without ultimately treating logical laws as brute facts.

Important clarification

I am not arguing that “God exists because logic exists.”

That would be circular.

Rather, I am asking whether, assuming objective and necessary logical truths, theism provides a better metaphysical explanation for their existence and applicability than competing accounts.

I am also not assuming that the Christian doctrine of God is automatically correct. A successful objection to my argument would need to address the philosophical claim itself.

The goal is not to prove who can quote more authorities, but to determine which worldview provides the most coherent explanation of the logical structure of reality.

[Vilferatus]

[Replying to Vilferatus in post #29]

Yes, @Vilferatus, I'm always looking for the moral and theological principles in the Bible to apply them to my life.

Me too brother, but that has nothing to do with the post xD im not saying it in a bad way, I came here to debate because im really interested in the answers to my philosophical questions.

[JehovahsWitness]

Why is God logical?

God's personality (his way of thinking and behaving) is a "A brute fact" ; the nature of God is in the name YHWH (Jehovah in English) which means "I shall be what I shall prove to be", in other words "I am what I am" Why is his character as it is? Because it is.

Is God subordianted to logic, or logic subordinates to God?

Neither. God is not subordinate to logic (as if it is an external force that is greater than him) nor does logic subordinate to God as if it were a separable "part" of him (which implies it can be removed from him), just as he is alive, he is logical, its how his living mind works. Why? see above.

[Vilferatus]

Why is God logical?

God's personality (his way of thinking and behaving) is a "A brute fact" ; the nature of God is in the name YHWH (Jehovah in English) which means "I shall be what I shall prove to be", in other words "I am what I am" Why is his character as it is? Because it is.

Is God subordianted to logic, or logic subordinates to God?

Neither. God is not subordinate to logic (as if it is an external force that is greater than him) nor does logic subordinate to God as if it were a separable "part" of him (which implies it can be removed from him), just as he is alive, he is logical, its how his living mind works. Why? see above.

Do you know what a dogma is?

[JehovahsWitness]

Why is God logical?

God's personality (his way of thinking and behaving) is a "A brute fact" ; the nature of God is in the name YHWH (Jehovah in English) which means "I shall be what I shall prove to be", in other words "I am what I am" Why is his character as it is? Because it is.

Is God subordianted to logic, or logic subordinates to God?

Neither. God is not subordinate to logic (as if it is an external force that is greater than him) nor does logic subordinate to God as if it were a separable "part" of him (which implies it can be removed from him), just as he is alive, he is logical, its how his living mind works. Why? see above.

Do you know what a dogma is?

Yes. Why do you ask?

[Vilferatus]

Why is God logical?

God's personality (his way of thinking and behaving) is a "A brute fact" ; the nature of God is in the name YHWH (Jehovah in English) which means "I shall be what I shall prove to be", in other words "I am what I am" Why is his character as it is? Because it is.

Is God subordianted to logic, or logic subordinates to God?

Neither. God is not subordinate to logic (as if it is an external force that is greater than him) nor does logic subordinate to God as if it were a separable "part" of him (which implies it can be removed from him), just as he is alive, he is logical, its how his living mind works. Why? see above.

Do you know what a dogma is?

Yes. Why do you ask?

Forget it

[JehovahsWitness]

UPON WHAT IS ALL REALITY FOUNDED?

The rationalist and the theist both ask the same basic question: "What is the one thing that everything else depends on?"

Mathematical Platonist says that" thing" is basic truths, like maths and logic, while the classical theist says that God is that bedrock, on which everything else depends. Both propose an ultimate foundation that needs no further explanation. In short, whether one believes "logic/law" is the bedrock of all subsequent realities or that role is played by a God, the position of the mathematical Platonist or the theist, is essentially the same. "why is logic , as it is? " or "where did logic come from? " become unnecessary because logic IS the answer/the foundational bedrock beyond which it is impossible to go? The same is true for the biblical God.

GIVEN THE ABOVE, CAN THE BIBILICAL GOD NOT BE DESCRIBED AS PURE LOGIC ?

No, because the biblical God is a person and logic & law in Platonism are not. Though both maybe viewed as "uncaused" by their respective proponents, the beliefs are not compatible regardless of what logos Christologists may wish.


JEHOVAHS WITNESS

VARIOUS VIEWS

• Mathematical Platonist — necessary mathematical/logical reality is ultimately foundational.
• Theist — God is the necessary ultimate foundation.
• Brute-fact view — reality simply exists, with no deeper explanation.
• Infinite-regress view — every explanation has a prior explanation, with no ultimate foundation.

FURTHER READING

How Real Is God to You?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1981122

Mankind's Search for God
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/publication/r1/lp-e/sh

RELATED POSTS

What is the biblical definition of God?
viewtopic.php?p=1192816#p1192816

Is panlogism /logos christology compatible with the biblical God YHWH?
viewtopic.php?p=1193082#p1193082

To learn more please go to other posts related to ....

GOD, PANLOGISM and ...THE DIVINE PERSONALITY

[OneJack]

UPON WHAT IS ALL REALITY FOUNDED?

The rationalist and the theist both ask the same basic question: "What is the one thing that everything else depends on?"

Mathematical Platonist says that" thing" is basic truths, like maths and logic, while the classical theist says that God is that bedrock, on which everything else depends. Both propose an ultimate foundation that needs no further explanation. In short, whether one believes "logic/law" is the bedrock of all subsequent realities or that role is played by a God, the position of the mathematical Platonist or the theist, is essentially the same. "why is logic , as it is? " or "where did logic come from? " become unnecessary because logic IS the answer/the foundational bedrock beyond which it is impossible to go? The same is true for the biblical God.

GIVEN THE ABOVE, CAN THE BIBILICAL GOD NOT BE DESCRIBED AS PURE LOGIC ?

No, because the biblical God is a person and logic & law in Platonism are not. Though both maybe viewed as "uncaused" by their respective proponents, the beliefs are not compatible regardless of what logos Christologists may wish.


JEHOVAHS WITNESS

VARIOUS VIEWS

• Mathematical Platonist — necessary mathematical/logical reality is ultimately foundational.
• Theist — God is the necessary ultimate foundation.
• Brute-fact view — reality simply exists, with no deeper explanation.
• Infinite-regress view — every explanation has a prior explanation, with no ultimate foundation.

FURTHER READING

How Real Is God to You?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1981122

Mankind's Search for God
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/publication/r1/lp-e/sh

RELATED POSTS

What is the biblical definition of God?
viewtopic.php?p=1192816#p1192816

Is panlogism /logos christology compatible with the biblical God YHWH?
viewtopic.php?p=1193082#p1193082

To learn more please go to other posts related to ....

GOD, PANLOGISM and ...THE DIVINE PERSONALITY

Neither the Bible nor JW is God, yet the latter says many things about God, whom he (JW) hasn’t heard or spoken to at all; hence, JW’s is just preaching his church’s doctrine/dogma/mantra about God.

[Vilferatus]

Neither the Bible nor JW is God, yet the latter says many things about God, whom he (JW) hasn’t heard or spoken to at all; hence, JW’s is just preaching his church’s doctrine/dogma/mantra about God.

Thats true... unless a logical explaination for their God is provided. But he refuses to offer one, so yes, in the case of this person, his belief of his God is a dogma.

But there is actually a logical explaination for God, that is compatible with the bible.

[JehovahsWitness]

... unless a logical explaination for their God is provided.

WHY IS THE EXISTENCE OF AN INFINITE PERSONAL GOD WHOSE MIND IS THE SOURCE OF REALITY (INCLUDING MATHS AND LOGIC) THE ONLY LOGICAL EXPLANATION FOR REALITY?

Because logic demands something infinite (without source) is the basis or the foundation for all reality.

Philosophically there are only three option to the question of the source of reality.

• Ultimate foundation: Reality ultimately rests on something* that has always existed and does not depend on anything else for its existence.

• Infinite regress: Every explanation depends on another explanation, continuing without end

• Brute fact: Reality exists, but there is no ultimate explanation for why it exists

*NOTE The bible's "something" is in fact a someONE ie a personal God. Any theology that holds the foundational "something" to be an impersonal force is entirely incompatible with the bible canon

Since there is no "fourth option" the most logical choice is the first.


CAN THE BIBLICAL GOD BE LOGICALLY EXPLAINED?

Asolutely. The biblical God explains Himself in scripture

- He is a spirit being
- He is infinite existing "before all time"
- He has a personality, mind and self-will
- He is what what he is (meaning he can be whatever he wants to be)
- He is almighty (he can do whatever he wants to do)

What is he "made of"?

- He is not "made" of anything as in pre-existing components ? He is "one" in that he is indivisable.
- He had no beginning and cannot have an end.

Is God subordianted to logic, or logic subordinates to God?

Neither. God is not subordinate to logic (as if it is an external force that is greater than him) nor does logic subordinate to God as if it were a separable "part" of him (which implies it can be removed from him), just as he is alive, he is logical, its how his living mind works.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS








FURTHER READING

How Real Is God to You?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1981122

Mankind's Search for God
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/publication/r1/lp-e/sh

RELATED POSTS

What is the biblical definition of God?
viewtopic.php?p=1192816#p1192816

Is panlogism /logos christology compatible with the biblical God YHWH?
viewtopic.php?p=1193082#p1193082

To learn more please go to other posts related to ....

GOD, PANLOGISM and ...THE DIVINE PERSONALITY

[BruceLeiter]

[Replying to Vilferatus in post #31]

@Vilferatus, you might be disappointed because the Bible doesn't answer very many philosophical questions. I almost majored in philosophy in college but instead had to learn the humility to accept the presence of many unsolved mysteries, the solutions of which the Bible does not give.