John 3:16

[Udanor]

John 3:16, For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

A question that has been brought up about this is..

Can you be a horrible person and still be a christian?

We know that Jesus died for are sins, and so we are forgiven.

Lets say, this guy belives in Jesus with his whole hart and belives he is a christian, but he was a horrible sinner...

He comites adultery almost every night, he is a thief,lier, even murderer...
But he does this knowing that Jesus will forgive him...

Lets say Hitler believed in Jesus! Would he get to heaven?

Im wondering how hard we have to be on are selfs when it comes to sinning? Jesus will forgive us anyway right?

[crystalmage]

I believe that god loves is unconditional. I disagree with the idea that you have to earn gods love. That you have to prove that you are good enough. That you have to deserve it. In my opinion christians slander god by promoting such ideas.

[crystalmage]

Wow according to your statistics muslims and chrisitans make up over 50% of religions people. Now their are 2 religions from the same source that directly contradict.

Christians say the messiah came once muslims say he came twice. If the muslims are right all the christians are going to roast.

[john_anthony_gonzalez]

A question that has been brought up about this is..

Can you be a horrible person and still be a christian?

yes but you would probably be called a horrible christian

We know that Jesus died for are sins, and so we are forgiven.

Lets say, this guy belives in Jesus with his whole hart and belives he is a christian, but he was a horrible sinner

He comites adultery almost every night, he is a thief,lier, even murderer...
But he does this knowing that Jesus will forgive him...

Lets say Hitler believed in Jesus! Would he get to heaven?

The man still will suffer reap and sewing consequences but since he's saved he will still go to heaven. Are you saying what if hitler believed in jesus or accepted jesus as his savior. But if he accepted Jesus as his savior then he would go to heaven. Because its just that simple

Im wondering how hard we have to be on are selfs when it comes to sinning? Jesus will forgive us anyway right?

every sin has consequences. Their are benefits and rewards for being an obediant believer. Christ died with all of humanities sins past present and future so no matter what we do it will never catch him off guard. All we have to do is ask for forgiveness after were saved to be at right with God, and all a person has to do to go to heaven is believe in Christ for eternal life.

[Onorc]

A question that has been brought up about this is..

Can you be a horrible person and still be a christian?

yes but you would probably be called a horrible christian

We know that Jesus died for are sins, and so we are forgiven.

Lets say, this guy belives in Jesus with his whole hart and belives he is a christian, but he was a horrible sinner

He comites adultery almost every night, he is a thief,lier, even murderer...
But he does this knowing that Jesus will forgive him...

Lets say Hitler believed in Jesus! Would he get to heaven?

The man still will suffer reap and sewing consequences but since he's saved he will still go to heaven. Are you saying what if hitler believed in jesus or accepted jesus as his savior. But if he accepted Jesus as his savior then he would go to heaven. Because its just that simple

Im wondering how hard we have to be on are selfs when it comes to sinning? Jesus will forgive us anyway right?

every sin has consequences. Their are benefits and rewards for being an obediant believer. Christ died with all of humanities sins past present and future so no matter what we do it will never catch him off guard. All we have to do is ask for forgiveness after were saved to be at right with God, and all a person has to do to go to heaven is believe in Christ for eternal life.

So basically there is going to be a hierarchy in heaven with God at the top and if Hitler would have been a Christian he would be close to the bottom?

[jeremiah]

I ask myself while reading these and hearing people at church and what not: "why is it that Christianity appears so one-sided? Why is it that Christians seem to always think that humanity is at it's worse when they believe that we are created in the image of God and saved by the sacrifical death of Christ? Why is that we claim that there is new life when we preach so much about Sin and Death when we need to focus more on the life God has for us through Christ? And I'm not talking about the prosperity gospel junk, that's a farse." I know that there are verses in the Bible about "man's inhumanity to man", sin and death and stuff like that, but there are so many more about the new person and the hope that mankind has in God. why is it in Christian doctrine that only the sin nature and salvation are mentioned and nothing about the new life or the way we are to be or become? Nothing at all to help us and reveal to us what we are to do here on earth, yeah sure there are things here and there in books, but those are so secondary, when they shouldn't be.

[Bart007]

I ask myself while reading these and hearing people at church and what not: "why is it that Christianity appears so one-sided? Why is it that Christians seem to always think that humanity is at it's worse when they believe that we are created in the image of God and saved by the sacrifical death of Christ? Why is that we claim that there is new life when we preach so much about Sin and Death when we need to focus more on the life God has for us through Christ? And I'm not talking about the prosperity gospel junk, that's a farse." I know that there are verses in the Bible about "man's inhumanity to man", sin and death and stuff like that, but there are so many more about the new person and the hope that mankind has in God. why is it in Christian doctrine that only the sin nature and salvation are mentioned and nothing about the new life or the way we are to be or become? Nothing at all to help us and reveal to us what we are to do here on earth, yeah sure there are things here and there in books, but those are so secondary, when they shouldn't be.

I'll post the following just for you Jeremiah, for your heart is good and the real gospel should be made known.

Yes, some of the Ten Commandments overlap Hammurabi's Code. It does not take any special insight for humankind to realize that shaming ones parents, stealing, the taking of an innocent life, coveting, etc., are causes of pain, hurt and suffering. I happen to believe that from Noah, that early civilizations consisted of rather moral people and that the growth of unethical conduct (sin) has been on the increase, more or less, ever since.

Even if people credit the Hammurabi code as containing many statutes found in the later written Mosaic Law, these laws, of themselves, are useless in regards with respect to making people righteous.

It is my view that God gave Moses the Ten Commandments et. al. for him to give to the people of the exodus, because the people were hard hearted. God wanted them to trust not their own understanding, but to walk with Him by faith and not by sight. They did not know how to walk and live by faith; they wanted a visible clear contract so they would know exactly what God required of them in order for them to receive all of His blessings. Indeed, they received this Law most enthusiastically, declaring at least twice "All that the LORD has spoken we will do!" and entering into this covenant with God based on their pledge of full adherence to the Mosaic Law and the sprinkling of the blood of sacrificed young bulls upon them.

Ex 19:7-9

7 So Moses came and called the elders of the people, and set before them all these words that the LORD had commanded him. 8 All the people answered together and said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do!" And Moses brought back the words of the people to the LORD. 9 The LORD said to Moses, "Behold, I will come to you in a thick cloud, so that the people may hear when I speak with you and may also believe in you forever." Then Moses told the words of the people to the LORD.
NASU

Ex 24:3-8

3 Then Moses came and recounted to the people all the words of the LORD and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one voice and said, " All the words which the LORD has spoken we will do!" 4 Moses wrote down all the words of the LORD. Then he arose early in the morning, and built an altar at the foot of the mountain with twelve pillars for the twelve tribes of Israel. 5 He sent young men of the sons of Israel, and they offered burnt offerings and sacrificed young bulls as peace offerings to the LORD. 6 Moses took half of the blood and put it in basins, and the other half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. 7 Then he took the book of the covenant and read it in the hearing of the people; and they said, " All that the LORD has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!" 8 So Moses took the blood and sprinkled it on the people, and said, "Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words."
NASU

The Mosaic Law was weak and useless in that it perfected no one, but rather, proved to be a source of curses for those under the Mosaic Covenant. Rather than decrease sin, the Law increased sin among the people. Every person under the Mosaic Covenant proved himself to be unrighteous, except our lord Yeshua (Jesus).

To understand more completely God's plan for offering and providing salvation and blessings to All peoples on the earth, it is important to note that there is a limited value of the Mosaic covenant between God and His chosen people Israel.


"Oh that they had such a Heart in them...”

Thus God knew from the beginning, at the very giving of the Mosaic Law, that they were incapable of keeping the Mosaic Law.

Deut 5:28-30

28 "The LORD heard the voice of your words when you spoke to me, and the LORD said to me, 'I have heard the voice of the words of this people which they have spoken to you. They have done well in all that they have spoken. Oh that they had such a heart in them, that they would fear Me and keep all My commandments always, that it may be well with them and with their sons forever!"
NASU

Indeed, even after they committed themselves to keeping all the commandments of God, they repeatedly showed what little faith they had in God. All the men over twenty years of age would perish over the next 38 years, not being allowed into the promised land due to their disobedience to God's commands and their lack of faith in God.

Once again, after 40 years in the wilderness, Moses addressed all the people of the Mosaic Covenant who were going into the Promised Land and reiterated the importance of keeping the Torah, the Law, and advised them that the reward for keeping this covenant would be great blessings, and he told them specifically what these blessings would be. Deut. 28: 1-14.

Moses also informed Israel of the punishment (the curses which would befall them) for breaking the covenant between them and God, and he told them specifically what these curses would be. Deut. 28:15-68.

Though the curses included banishment from the land which God gave them and great suffering and persecution in foreign lands, restoration was also promised to Israel at the conclusion of this time of punishment, per Deuteronomy 30.

Then Moses instructed the people about the Covenant that bears his name,
"See, I have set before you this day life and prosperity, death and
adversity. ... I call heaven and earth as a witness against you
today that I set before you life and death, blessing and the curse.
So choose life in order that you may live, you and your
descendants." Deut. 30: 15 & 19.

In hindsight, we can see that Israel had chosen death and adversity. But this was no surprise to God, for He knew even as Moses was reiterating the Covenant, that His people were incapable of keeping it and would be, in effect, choosing death and adversity.
"Then YHWH said to Moses, "Behold, the time for you to die is
near, call Yeshua, and present yourselves at the tent of meeting so
that I may commission him". ... And YHWH said to Moses, "Behold,
you are about to lie down with your fathers; and this people will
arise and play the harlot with strange gods of the land, into the
midst of which they are going, and will forsake me and break My
covenant that I have made with them". Deut. 31:14 & 16.

So if the Mosaic Covenant is inadequate to provide Life to God's chosen, and much less so to the other peoples of the world, then what is God's plan to bless Israel and the peoples of the earth with life. (Remember, when G-d cast Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden, He sent a cherubim and a flaming sword, which turned every direction, to guard the way to the tree of life so that man may not eat of it and live forever).

The answer is given by Moses in Deut. 18:15-19

"YHWH your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him. "This is according to all that you asked of YHWH your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of YHWH my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, or I will die.' " YHWH said to me, 'They have spoken well. 'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command him. It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words that He shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him.
NASU (Caps mine).

This prophecy, along with many others to follow, focuses on that male descendant, the seed of Eve, who will crush the skull of the serpent, who will be a great blessing to Israel and the peoples of the world, the redeemer, the Saviour, the Messiah.

Who is this Prophet? That has been the big search throughout history. It is clear that ever since Moses, Israel has sought and been awaiting this Prophet. In Yeshua's (Jesus’s) day they asked him, 'Are you the Prophet whose coming is foretold?'

Yet, even in Moses day, God let it be known what the name of that Prophet is via a shadow of what was to come.

Deut 1:37-38
Not even you shall enter there. “Yeshua (i.e. Joshua) the son of Nun, who stands before you, he shall enter there; encourage him, for he will cause Israel to inherit it.”
NASU


The above underscores that salvation, redemption, life itself, has not been achieved through the observance and adherence to the Mosaic covenant, and seems it was not intended to be, but somehow is directly related to this expected Messiah.

Gal 3:19-29

19 Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith, which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.
NASU

We, who are Christians, are no longer under the Mosaic Covenant. We can still agree, as people in Hammurabi's day did also, that things like shaming ones parents, stealing, the taking of an innocent life, coveting, etc., are causes of pain, hurt and suffering. But the keeping of them is not the basis of our redemption, salvation, and righteousness. As it is written in Hebrews, Yeshua is a High Priest, not of the order of Aaron, but of Melchizedek, Where there is a change of Priesthood, there is also a change of Law. Whereas the Mosaic law was a long list of commandments and statutes that we were required to keep, The laws of Christ keep us and accounts to us righteousness.

Heb 7:11-22

Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? For when the priesthood is changed, of necessity there takes place a change of law also. For the one concerning whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no one has officiated at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests. And this is clearer still, if another priest arises according to the likeness of Melchizedek, who has become such not on the basis of a law of physical requirement, but according to the power of an indestructible life. For it is attested of Him,

"YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER
ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK."

For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness (for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. And inasmuch as it was not without an oath (for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,

"THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND, 'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER'"); so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.
NASU

If you're interested I'll share more about the nature of new Laws of under the new Priesthood of Jesus. We are called under the new covenant into a relationship with God, a transforming friendship with Him who is Love and Good.

[realthinker]

We, who are Christians, are no longer under the Mosaic Covenant. We can still agree, as people in Hammurabi's day did also, that things like shaming ones parents, stealing, the taking of an innocent life, coveting, etc., are causes of pain, hurt and suffering. But the keeping of them is not the basis of our redemption, salvation, and righteousness.

I agree with your recognition of the items from Hammurabi's code that have been further exhibited in law throughout history. The only reason I'd think I need to be redeemed or saved though is because the church is selling redemption and salvation. I don't let car salespeople sell me undercoating. I don't buy Oxy-clean, ginsu knives or space bags off of TV because they tell me I need them. I don't think I should accept the same coercive tactics from the church because it's religion. With regard to righteousness, I let my relationships with my family and my community portray my righteousness. That's all the judgment I need.

[jeremiah]

Yes, some of the Ten Commandments overlap Hammurabi's Code. It does not take any special insight for humankind to realize that shaming ones parents, stealing, the taking of an innocent life, coveting, etc., are causes of pain, hurt and suffering. I happen to believe that from Noah, that early civilizations consisted of rather moral people and that the growth of unethical conduct (sin) has been on the increase, more or less, ever since.

Even if people credit the Hammurabi code as containing many statutes found in the later written Mosaic Law, these laws, of themselves, are useless in regards with respect to making people righteous.

I believe what all you have said here, I have a few questions in two other places. Matter of fact I have come to find out that the letter to the Romans is a very important one to Christians, although we do not know the power behind those words and that they are important to know. So often Romans is said to be "hard to understand". I think they just don't want to bother with it. They are happy with just thinking it is to "mysterious", whatever that means (sarcasm). So what are these "new laws" that you speak of? I am not sure why you speak of the Hammurabi code, or laws. I have come across them before in my searching. And if you say that you think that people were basically good from the time of Noah, God chose to destroy mankind save but Noah and his family, why would he do that? Just a question, curious about your answer.

This prophecy, along with many others to follow, focuses on that male descendant, the seed of Eve, who will crush the skull of the serpent, who will be a great blessing to Israel and the peoples of the world, the redeemer, the Saviour, the Messiah.

Very good, focusing on the seed of the woman. Although the seed comes from the man into the woman, the baby comes from the female. It is interesting that the heritage line, at least in my research, in Judaism comes through the mother rather then the father. My sources might be a little iffy, but I do not recall them right now. It is 12:30 a.m.!

We, who are Christians, are no longer under the Mosaic Covenant. We can still agree, as people in Hammurabi's day did also, that things like shaming ones parents, stealing, the taking of an innocent life, coveting, etc., are causes of pain, hurt and suffering. But the keeping of them is not the basis of our redemption, salvation, and righteousness. As it is written in Hebrews, Yeshua is a High Priest, not of the order of Aaron, but of Melchizedek, Where there is a change of Priesthood, there is also a change of Law. Whereas the Mosaic law was a long list of commandments and statutes that we were required to keep, The laws of Christ keep us and accounts to us righteousness.

As far as to my knowledge, the Christians, those who have accepted the Jewish Messiah, according to the Christian mind, were never under the Mosaic Covenant to begin with. Usually when we speak of Christians, we are reffering to the gentile people, those who are not Jewish. So, correct me if I might be wrong, but when were the Christians ever under the Mosiac Covenant?

[Goat]

Very good, focusing on the seed of the woman. Although the seed comes from the man into the woman, the baby comes from the female. It is interesting that the heritage line, at least in my research, in Judaism comes through the mother rather then the father. My sources might be a little iffy, but I do not recall them right now. It is 12:30 a.m.!

Not quite true. The child is considered JEWISH if the mother is Jewish, but the bloodline counts from the father. The bloodlines were so very important to the
ancient Hebrews that the bloodline of an adopted child was their biological fathers
bloodline, not the adoptive fathers bloodline.

This is considered today, when only the Cohan and the Levine know their bloodline. To be a Cohan or a Levine , your biological father has to be one.

[jeremiah]

Not quite true. The child is considered JEWISH if the mother is Jewish, but the bloodline counts from the father. The bloodlines were so very important to the
ancient Hebrews that the bloodline of an adopted child was their biological fathers
bloodline, not the adoptive fathers bloodline.

This is considered today, when only the Cohan and the Levine know their bloodline. To be a Cohan or a Levine , your biological father has to be one.

I knew something was a little off last night. This confirms it. It is interesting how the two parents play an important role in the identity of the chld though. I do like that. So what about my other two questions?