Predestination/Election

[BLanE]

I know that this topic is being discussed elsewhere but I wanted to get more specific about it. I am interested in all ideas but especially those from a Christian perspective. Personally, I have a hard time believing that God would create to send some people to heaven and some to hell. The temptation might be to debate the heaven and hell issue but I would like to stay on Predestination and Election. Calvinists believe that everything is preordained. Our lives, our decisions and our eternal dwelling place. I would like to know why some of you believe as John Calvin (please give scripture to support) and why some of you do not. (also, please give scripture to support) I am trying to come to a rational decision and would like some input. Also, if you do believe in the election process, that some of us have been elected to be God's children, then what separates that belief from the Jehova's Witness belief? Just a number? Thanks

[fidelis]

I still don't understand. If you think about the elements of Catholicism, then Catholics are very sure of the existance of God, as a Catholic it doesn't make sense to me how you can be both. Nevermind.

With regards to the Roman or Jewish statement, yes, it was the Romans who actually put Jesus to death, but if you know the story of the Passion, then you will understand that it was in fact the Jews who condemned Him to death, not the Romans. Read Acts of the Apostles, then you will see.

[Dilettante]

I know it's hard to understand. But Catholicism is part of my identity: if I had grown up in a different religion I would be a different person. Even in the moments when I am most inclined to believe, it's still not knowledge, so I'm still an Agnostic.

Acts of the Apostles is a piece of apologetics, not history. I was speaking about history.

[fidelis]

Some would argue that the Holocaust isn't history, it doesn't make them right

[Dilettante]

Some would argue that the Holocaust isn't history, it doesn't make them right

When I say that Acts is not history I don't mean that all of it is fiction, but that it wasn't written with the intention of accurately reflecting the events. The purpose was to defend the Christian faith against its detractors, not to offer a historically precise account. So we shouldn't be surprised if religious considerations frequently override historical accuracy.

No professional historian says the Holocaust isn't history. And if one did, it would be really easy to prove him wrong. As Michael Shermer points out in one of his books, we know that the Holocaust happened because we have:

1. Written documents (letters, orders, speeches, memoirs,
confessions,etc.)
2. Eyewitness testimony from survivors, ex-Nazis, and the locals.
3. Photographs and films (secretly taken by prisoners and also
aerial photographs and footage by German and Allied soldiers)
4. Physical evidence such as artifacts found at the sites of the
concentration camps (Besides, Auschwitz can still be visited).
5. Demographic data--where are all those people who are missing?

When all that evidence converges it leads to the only possible conclusion: that the Holocaust happened. Unfortunately, in the case of the events narrated in the Book of Acts, we have only one document: the Book of Acts itself. This doesn't necessarily mean it's all lies, but just that its status as history is at least questionable. Besides, it's not hard to imagine why the apostles (who were at the time clashing with the Jews over doctrine and did not want to upset the powerful Romans) would have downplayed the role of the Romans in the arrest and execution of Jesus and shift the emphasis onto the Jews.

[gonkm]

Besides, it's not hard to imagine why the apostles (who were at the time clashing with the Jews over doctrine and did not want to upset the powerful Romans) would have downplayed the role of the Romans in the arrest and execution of Jesus and shift the emphasis onto the Jews.

Its true that Pilot and the Romans were the ones in charge of execution. But who was it that brought Jesus to Pilot to be executed?

The greater sin lies in the one who handed him over:
John 19:11 "Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except, it were given thee from above: therefore, he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin".

I think it may be a mistake to say "the Jews handed him over" since not all Jews (i.e. the disciples and Jesus himself) did this.

[gonkm]

I know that this topic is being discussed elsewhere but I wanted to get more specific about it. I am interested in all ideas but especially those from a Christian perspective. Personally, I have a hard time believing that God would create to send some people to heaven and some to hell. The temptation might be to debate the heaven and hell issue but I would like to stay on Predestination and Election. Calvinists believe that everything is preordained. Our lives, our decisions and our eternal dwelling place. I would like to know why some of you believe as John Calvin (please give scripture to support) and why some of you do not. (also, please give scripture to support) I am trying to come to a rational decision and would like some input. Also, if you do believe in the election process, that some of us have been elected to be God's children, then what separates that belief from the Jehova's Witness belief? Just a number? Thanks

I'm of the belief that it is dangerous to go too far to one side (i.e. Calvinism) or another (i.e. Arminianism) when it comes to this subject.

However, a pastor who I admire and respect greatly said of the predestinarian statements in the bible "It's going to take a scissors to cut them out of there". There is not way biblically speaking to get around passages like the following:

Romans 8:29-30: For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

Ephesians 1:3-6: Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

John 10:14,27-30 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. . . . My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.

Predestination can be a source of great comfort if you know that you believe in Jesus Christ.

But we also need to balance with other truths we know in the bible such as:
1 Timothy 4:9-10 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance [10] (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

John 12:46,47 "I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believes on me should not abide in darkness.... for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world."


It seems to me that for grace to be truly grace, salvation must be a work of God's, not even partially our own work. But at the same time, Jesus came to save the world. A friend of mine said that it is best if we believe as a predestinarian but do as an arminian. This idea has some merit as it may lead a person to do more good works, while still thanking god for the grace he's given. I do believe however that if someone truly believes he's chosen or "saved" he/she will be more inclined to do good works out of gratitude.

[Dilettante]

So, you are saying basically that Divine Grace and Salvation is like the lottery. Many will buy a ticket (some may not even bother) but only a few will receive the coveted prizes, and still less the grand prizes. The inscrutable designs of the lottery are to us just as inscrutable as those of God.
Doesn't make much sense to me, but I suppose it's not impossible.

[gonkm]

No, that's not what I'm saying. God has his reasons for who he picks. And Christ is offered to everyone. "All who call on the name of the Lord will be saved". But the very fact that you do call on him is the result of the way he created you. My pastor said that he once said to a person who was lecturing on predestination, "So you mean that God arbitrarily picks and choses who he's going to save". He said the lecturer cam up, stood behind him, breathing down his neck and said "Don't ever call the choices of God arbitrary!" And I think this is true. We may not know why God does what he does, but its unfair to God to call what he does arbitrary (you would not do such with your best friend, even if he didn't tell you why he choses to do something).

So, you are saying basically that Divine Grace and Salvation is like the lottery. Many will buy a ticket (some may not even bother) but only a few will receive the coveted prizes, and still less the grand prizes. The inscrutable designs of the lottery are to us just as inscrutable as those of God.
Doesn't make much sense to me, but I suppose it's not impossible.

[Dilettante]

No, that's not what I'm saying. God has his reasons for who he picks. And Christ is offered to everyone. "All who call on the name of the Lord will be saved". But the very fact that you do call on him is the result of the way he created you. My pastor said that he once said to a person who was lecturing on predestination, "So you mean that God arbitrarily picks and choses who he's going to save". He said the lecturer cam up, stood behind him, breathing down his neck and said "Don't ever call the choices of God arbitrary!" And I think this is true. We may not know why God does what he does, but its unfair to God to call what he does arbitrary (you would not do such with your best friend, even if he didn't tell you why he choses to do something).

God may have his reasons, but since they're inscrutable, they're as good as arbitrary to us. That's where the lottery analogy fits in. Of course the lottery has no "mind" and therefore no reasons, but if someone believed in a "lottery spirit" who chooses the numbers in an apparently random and arbitrary manner, I don't see how we could disprove that.
I find it a little paradoxical that at times we are told that God's thinking is clearly expressed in the Bible, but at other times we are told that it's presumptuous of us to try and understand it. A common answer I have heard from Calvinists is "you have no right to call God's actions ____ (fill the blank with appropriate word)." If that is true, if God's concepts of "good", "just", etc are so far removed from ours, if he's so unknowable, then perhaps we should keep silent about God, because nothing we can say about can be true.

[gonkm]

I have faith that God's actions are not arbitrary. The cross seems to me to be a wonderful message as to how good God is. He could have walked away, did miracles and get rid of all those who opposed him. But he instead chose to die for anyone who would have him. And for me that is enough. I am not going to say that his suffering and the punishment he took on the cross is not good enough for me. Especially since His character was revealed as being extremely loving and generous throughout his life here on earth.

So for me that is enough.

No, that's not what I'm saying. God has his reasons for who he picks. And Christ is offered to everyone. "All who call on the name of the Lord will be saved". But the very fact that you do call on him is the result of the way he created you. My pastor said that he once said to a person who was lecturing on predestination, "So you mean that God arbitrarily picks and choses who he's going to save". He said the lecturer cam up, stood behind him, breathing down his neck and said "Don't ever call the choices of God arbitrary!" And I think this is true. We may not know why God does what he does, but its unfair to God to call what he does arbitrary (you would not do such with your best friend, even if he didn't tell you why he choses to do something).

God may have his reasons, but since they're inscrutable, they're as good as arbitrary to us. That's where the lottery analogy fits in. Of course the lottery has no "mind" and therefore no reasons, but if someone believed in a "lottery spirit" who chooses the numbers in an apparently random and arbitrary manner, I don't see how we could disprove that.
I find it a little paradoxical that at times we are told that God's thinking is clearly expressed in the Bible, but at other times we are told that it's presumptuous of us to try and understand it. A common answer I have heard from Calvinists is "you have no right to call God's actions ____ (fill the blank with appropriate word)." If that is true, if God's concepts of "good", "just", etc are so far removed from ours, if he's so unknowable, then perhaps we should keep silent about God, because nothing we can say about can be true.