BibleGod and firstborn son massacre in Egypt

[Woland]

Hello,

Could any Christian who believes in the literal truth (or even metaphorical worth) of the story of the firstborn son massacre please explain to me how one can seriously consider that murdering countless defenseless children to punish someone would ever even potentially be compatible with your notion of god representing perfect morality, whatever that may be?

What possible explanations can there ever be for such cruelty being found in "God's inspired/literal word" and represented as being directly caused by said deity?

Is it not obvious that any divine, loving entity would have nothing to do with such barbarity?

How is this usually "explained" away by apologists?

-Woland

[McCulloch]

How is this usually "explained" away by apologists?

Andrea Yates figured out the explanation.

[JehovahsWitness]

Hello,

Could any Christian who believes in the literal truth (or even metaphorical worth) of the story of the firstborn son massacre please explain to me how one can seriously consider that murdering countless defenseless children to punish someone would ever even potentially be compatible with your notion of god representing perfect morality, whatever that may be?

MURDER OR KILLING

Firstly, it is the State or ruling authority that decides if something is "murder" or not. killing is not automatically considered "murder" in any society. MURDER is 'unlawful' killing, and since the "biblegod" makes the law, this one can no more murder than a Judge pronouncing the death penelty in line with State established laws can or a soldier on the battlefield respecting universally established codes of law does.

JUST CAUSE

Regarding the MORALITY of events, most agree that under certain extreme circumstances, innocent bystanders (war victims) will be killed in the struggle for the greater good. The fight against SLAVERY (as was the case in the Hebrew rebellion in Egypt) is considered by many, such a justifiable cause.

The tyrannical regime they were rebelling against had institutionalized infanticide, countless children were being killed, that along with racial oppression and the implied denial of basic human rights would even today be considered just cause for a civil or national uprising. The civil struggle in Egypt was for the most was a non-violent disruption and distruction of the Egyptian infrastructure, through 9 consecutive manifestations. The Egyptian people were well aware of what was going on since these disruptive measure effected them all and the Hebrew envoy (Moses) publically annouced what they would be. Of the 9 manifestations (plagues) the only one that could possibly have threatened human life was was #7 and the Egyptians as well as the Hebrews were told how to protect themselves (in this case by remaining inside their houses).

It was the same case for the 10th and final plague. Unlike in other civil wars, all individuals were given the opportunity to protect themselves and their children. Instructions where provided that anyone that put a bloodmark on their doorposts would be unaffected. After 9 plagues it would have been public knowledge what was going on, and the fact that a vast mixed company of non-Israelites eventually left the Egypt is testimony that many others put took the warning to heart and followed instructions to protect their children.

In short, there is no reason why a single Egyptian baby should have died. The bible account indicates that the Egyptians were given fair warning and any deaths therefore, sad as they were rest squarely at the feet of negligent parents.





JW





RELATED POSTS

Was the drowing of Pharaoh and his army justified?
viewtopic.php?p=1041972#p1041972

Why do Egyptian records fail to provide any information about the Exodus?
viewtopic.php?p=339172#p339172

Why did God destroy the Canaanites?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 58#p906458

Why did God command the destruction of the MIDIANITES?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 42#p359442

To learn more please go to other posts related to ....

DIVINE WAR, VIOLENCE and .... THE "BAD" GOD

[McCulloch]

In short, there is no reason why a single Egyptian baby should have died. The bible account indicates that the Egyptians were given fair warning and any deaths therefore, sad as they were rest squarely at the feet of negligent parents.

Who was it that hardened the heart of the Pharaoh? The abusive spouse can also use this kind of excuse. "Don't make me hurt the kitten. If you continue to behave badly, I'm going to have to torture the cat. " The moral character of the god of the Bible certainly shines through in this tale.

[ChristShepherd]

Matthew 2:16-18 (New American Standard Bible)
16Then when Herod saw that he had been tricked by the magi, he became very enraged, and sent and slew all the male children who were in Bethlehem and all its vicinity, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the magi.
17Then what had been spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled:
18"A VOICE WAS HEARD IN RAMAH,
WEEPING AND GREAT MOURNING,
RACHEL WEEPING FOR HER CHILDREN;
AND SHE REFUSED TO BE COMFORTED,
BECAUSE THEY WERE NO MORE."

Surely, this never happened. It is just a bogus attempt to show Jesus fulfilled OT prophecy.
No historian of the period mentions this event. Especially note worthy is the fact that Josephus doesn't mention it even though he wrote extensively about Herod.

Leah is the mother of the Jews not Rachel.
Ramah is about 15 miles away from Bethlehem.
The children in Jeremiah's writing were not dead, they were in captivity.
Here is the next verse from Jeremiah.
Jeremiah 31:16 (New American Standard Bible)
16Thus says the LORD,
"Restrain your voice from weeping
And your eyes from tears;
For your work will be rewarded," declares the LORD,
"And they will return from the land of the enemy.

[Cathar1950]

I have read where the parting of the sea was a remake of one of the gods battling Sea the sea god.
I doubt the story and there doesn't seem to be any physical support for the story having happened.
While there were people coming and going from Egypt and many often found refuge there. The land of Canaan was often even run by Egyptians. The Canaanites and early Israel were related.

The story seems to be about the demands and ownership Yahweh had over the first-born. They were His because he spared them.
Even child sacrifice was seen as an ideal and not something that was demanded even if it were owed.
Ezekiel seems to say God demanded child sacrifice so they may know he was Yahweh the storm and war god both terrible and jealous.

[Woland]

Hello JehovahsWitness,

MURDER OR KILLING

Firstly, it is the State or ruling authority that decides if something is "murder" or not. killing is not automatically considered "murder" in any society.

Killing defenseless children when you are not forced to in any way whatsoever always constitutes murder of the most callous kind. I challenge you to show otherwise.

MURDER is 'unlawful' killing, and since the "biblegod" makes the law, this one can no more murder than a Judge pronouncing the death penelty in line with State established laws can or a soldier on the battlefield respecting universally established codes of law does.

This BibleGod cannot be shown to be anything else than a figment of desert-dwellers' imaginations, so before acknowledging that concept as being the supreme law and justifying atrocities based on fallacious and circular reasoning, one may want to interrogate himself as to WHY a loving deity would kill countless children, and if such an action is consistent with a deity deserving of worship.

If one is simply ready to define WHATEVER the god concept is CLAIMED to have done as being representative of perfect morality, then one could believe in the most immoral of things and never realize it - which is obviously the case of countless theists.

JUST CAUSE

Regarding the MORALITY of events, most agree that under certain extreme circumstances, innocent bystanders (war victims) will be killed in the struggle for the greater good.

Irrelevant. Humans don't have the power to spare innocent bystanders in wars. Your deity went out of its way, according to the tales, to kill innocent bystanders when there was no justification to do so. Your comparison is extremely flawed. Do you acknowledge this?

I don't see how you could not. What your example is implying is that, as an analogy, if the US had extremely precise weapons that could kill anyone on Earth specifically, and they warned terrorists to give up, they would be justified in killing the terrorists' children to punish them.

RIDICULOUS. And patently immoral.

The fight against SLAVERY (as was the case in the Hebrew rebellion in Egypt) is considered by many, such a justifiable cause.

To kill defenseless children, "with magic", unnecessarily and to punish others?

The only people who would consider slavery a justifiable cause for murdering innocent children when one did not need to do so at all (and, indeed, the children had nothing to do with the supposed wrongdoings of their parents), are those who already believe that no matter what, the claimed actions of a claimed deity are by definition moral.

Circular. Reasoning. Of the vilest kind - the kind which prevents humans from thinking for themselves "gee I wonder why my omnipotent loving god had to kill children to teach someone else a lesson". Oh well, if he did it, it must be a perfectly just and loving action, right?

The tyrannical regime they were rebelling against had institutionalized infanticide, countless children were being killed, that along with racial oppression and the implied denial of basic human rights would even today be considered just cause for a civil or national uprising.

And specifically targeting and killing children when you have the power to act in any other way including punishing those who are ACTUALLY RESPONSIBLE? Is this what you believe? Is this what other JW believe?

The civil struggle in Egypt was for the most was a non-violent disruption and distruction of the Egyptian infrastructure, through 9 consecutive manifestations. The Egyptian people were well aware of what was going on since these disruptive measure effected them all and the Hebrew envoy (Moses) publically annouced what they would be. Of the 9 manifestations (plagues) the only one that could possibly have threatened human life was was #7 and the Egyptians as well as the Hebrews were told how to protect themselves (in this case by remaining inside their houses).

The deity you are defending seems more and more petty, callous and immoral by the minute.

It was the same case for the 10th and final plague. Unlike in other civil wars, all individuals were given the opportunity to protect themselves and their children. Instructions where provided that anyone that put a bloodmark on their doorposts would be unaffected. After 9 plagues it would have been public knowledge what was going on, and the fact that a vast mixed company of non-Israelites eventually left the Egypt is testimony that many others put took the warning to heart and followed instructions to protect their children.

You just explained why the story is ridiculous in addition to portraying the vilest of all conceivable deities.

In short, there is no reason why a single Egyptian baby should have died.

The only valid statement I've seen so far.

The bible account indicates that the Egyptians were given fair warning and any deaths therefore, sad as they were rest squarely at the feet of negligent parents.

I don't even know where to begin.

CHILDREN, for crying out loud. CHILDREN. You would really defend the massacre of countless CHILDREN to protect your belief in the Biblegod concept?

-Woland

[Zzyzx]

.

CHILDREN, for crying out loud. CHILDREN. You would really defend the massacre of countless CHILDREN to protect your belief in the Biblegod concept?

JW,

Do you fail to recognize that NOTHING you can come up with will justify killing of children, infants, and unborn, as the bible god is purported to have done and to have approved of others doing?

To even try to justify such killing by claiming that "my favorite 'god' can do no wrong" or "god has the right to do whatever he chooses" destroys your credibility and that of the religion that promotes such tales and such "gods".

Readers evaluate the merits of what is presented.

[Woland]

I can't believe it. I simply can't believe that some theists would actually go this far to retain their precious beliefs. I can only hope that the words and excuses offered are not seen as truly justificative of the actions of the deity depicted in the story.

How do other Christians, let us say, "moderate Christians" or "educated Christians", justify this story?

EVEN IF it's taken as metaphorical, what can possibly be the point of depicting such a repulsive deity?

Christians, if you have an explanation as to why this story is found at all in the book of your supposedly loving deity, please, PLEASE let me know about it. I really hope that vague and ultimately irrelevant claims of metaphor and outright justification of atrocities are not the best explanations there are for this particular biblical passage.

I'm absolutely astounded that, in this modern age, some people would justify the deliberate, calculated, targeted killing of children to punish others. What's even worse is to claim that this action is compatible with "the maker of all there is, the source of all morality".

HOW is this notion compatible with your view of the god concept?

-Woland

[nogods]

The slaughter of the firstborn is part of a cosmic myth represented by the star Al Kaid which represented ostrich shells thrown out of a nearby nest. This group of stars is also near the foot of Orion (Herod) and would also represent the slaughter of the innocents in Matthew as well the killing of the infant in the Book of Jasher. This is an important location as this was the time of Passover which was the vernal equinox. The Pleiades is above this area and would be the constellation associated with the equinox, which makes it possible to date within a few hundred years when the story of Moses was composed.

The parting of the seas and Egypt being pushed back by the hand of YHWH does indeed represent a sea battle as suggested. It is the battle of Marduk, who was also the God over the vernal equinox.