Logical Problem of Evil

[Meow Mix]

I'm sorry if this topic has [probably] been done to death on this board but it's one of my favorite subjects with respect to Christianity and I thought I would bring it up.

Epicurus put the problem fairly well when he supposedly said:

If God is willing to prevent evil but unable,
Then He is impotent.
If He is able but not willing,
Then He is malevolent.
If He is both able and willing,
Then whence cometh evil?
If He is neither able nor willing,
Then why call Him God?

Now, rather than get into the whole debate over what "evil" means, I'm going to make this a little easier by simply talking about suffering. I think most of us can probably agree that suffering is undesirable and that a being which causes or allows unnecessary suffering can't possibly fulfill the definition of "benevolent."

Thus we arrive at the question: if God is omnipotent (can actualize any logically possible state of affairs), omniscient (absolutely knows all possible states of affairs), and omnibenevolent (never malevolent), then why does suffering exist in the actual world?

I'll pre-emptively remove the most typical response: that of the "free will" theodicy. Suffering isn't entirely explained by the existence of human free choice -- after all, what free choice was responsible for, say, child leukemia? Beyond that, an omnipotent being should be able to create a world in which there is no physical suffering that remains conducive to free will.

I could go on, but I'd rather focus on responses as they come. Thoughts?

[JehovahsWitness]

#QUESTION: If there is a loving god, why does he permit suffering.
God never intended humans to suffer this way, He gave mankind a perfect start but we suffer because our first parents (Adam and Eve) rebelled against God and wanted to "go it alone". Humans were not created to function disconnected from God; just as a computer needs to have a constant source of power, the human body begins to break down and becomes suceptable to sickness and disease if they were to lose that essential connection with him. This is what happened in Eden.

Adam and Eve's rejection of God lead to them sinning and as a result dying. Since we all genetically inherit features from our parents, humans all display the same physical weaknesses and limited lifespan; the genetic code, if you like was damaged, and all humans would in turn inherite that "damage" DNA coding (Romans 5: 12).


# QUESTION: But why did God allow them to take such a suicidal path? Especially as it would affect their unborn children?
Because our fore parents had the RIGHT to do so, regardless of the consequences. To not allow them to reject him would deny them the freedom of self determination. If the car INSISTS on filling its tank with inappropriate fuel, why would people ask "why does the mechanic allow breakdown"

# QUESTION: But why doesn't god "repair the damage"?
The bible shows he will (Math 6: 9, 10), but before he steps in some basic issues raised in Eden that, if unaddressed will no doubt resurge, need to be settled. Those issues are:
*Does god have the RIGHT to insist on imposing his rulership.
*Is mankind better off, happier and healthier without the 'connection to god' that he is insisting on?
Just as a parent will allow his child to undergoe a painful operation for its longterm good, God is allowing sufficient time for this question to be settled. Only then will he intervene.


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[Meow Mix]

First of all -- and I don't wish to be rude -- let me state that I'm not looking for copied/pasted answers. I put effort into my posts and I would like it if the same was given in return.

Now that I've thoroughly made myself sound like a stickler, let me address these points.

Your first paragraph has a few serious flaws:
1) Why do the rest of us have to suffer for Adam and Eve's choice? Why weren't we each given the choice to be "disconnected from God" or not? It certainly doesn't seem fair or just for us to suffer for the crimes of our ancestors, does it?

2) Asserting that the choices Adam and Eve made caused problems that were passed genetically is pretty much Lamarckism, which is known to be false. I'm not sure how else to respond to that other than it simply doesn't coincide with what we know about reality.

As for the second paragraph, you speak of "self determination" but at the same time endorse the concept of the children bearing the sins of their forebears. That isn't justice -- if you owed me a favor and you died and I pounded down the door of your children and demanded they pay me your favor, am I a good and just person? Of course not!

The final paragraph seems to me to be an excuse. An omnipotent being doesn't require means to an end: anything that it wants to occur will simply occur.

Sorry, I'm skeptical of your approach to the Problem of Evil. It doesn't seem to me as though you've answered it.

EDIT: Also, regarding the "pain while undergoing an operation" analogy. This analogy doesn't work, either. The reason pain exists during an operation is because doctors and physicians are finite, fallible beings -- they don't have the necessary power to heal a wound without pain.

God, an omnipotent being, could heal wounds without the pain of an operation. Furthermore, God could make it such that the wound never happens in the first place. That analogy is extremely flawed, though I often see it repeated in Problem of Evil discussions.

[Filthy Tugboat]

#QUESTION: If there is a loving god, why does he permit suffering.
God never intended humans to suffer this way, He gave mankind a perfect start but we suffer because our first parents (Adam and Eve) rebelled against God and wanted to "go it alone".

I doubt the validity of this assertion but as it would be off topic, I suppose we will have to agree to disagree for now.

Humans were not created to function disconnected from God; just as a computer needs to have a constant source of power, the human body begins to break down and becomes suceptable to sickness and disease if they were to lose that essential connection with him. This is what happened in Eden.

Why did God create the system like this? On top of that, why did God create disease so that if and when people did 'rebel' against God they would become sick. It seems that the world was prepared to create suffering in those that rebelled against God.

# QUESTION: But why did God allow them to take such a suicidal path? Especially as it would affect their unborn children?
Because our fore parents had the RIGHT to do so, regardless of the consequences. To not allow them to reject him would deny them the freedom of self determination.

Why do parents have the right to behave so destructively? My objection is not about preventing the rejection it is about treating the children with such disregard as to not give them the chance their parents had. This does not appear to be benevolent at all.

If the car INSISTS on filling its tank with inappropriate fuel, why would people ask "why does the mechanic allow breakdown"

This does not appear to be an apt analogy as a car cannot insist upon anything and a mechanic has limited control on when a car will "breakdown", especially if the mechanic has not seen or worked on the car previously.

# QUESTION: But why doesn't god "repair the damage"?
The bible shows he will (Math 6: 9, 10), but before he steps in some basic issues raised in Eden that, if unaddressed will no doubt resurge, need to be settled. Those issues are:
*Does god have the RIGHT to insist on imposing his rulership.
*Is mankind better off, happier and healthier without the 'connection to god' that he is insisting on?
Just as a parent will allow his child to undergoe a painful operation for its longterm good, God is allowing sufficient time for this question to be settled. Only then will he intervene.

The problem is many billions of individual lives will be lost during this time, much suffering will occur and in the end, it would all be preventable by this God. If he is omnipotent, why does it take so long to fix the problems? Why does it take any time at all? Why is so much suffering permissible when the problem could be just as perfectly solved over any period of time. It appears that suffering and waiting is the goal of such a long term plan since such suffering and time is completely unnecessary for the problem to be fixed.

[JehovahsWitness]

1) Why do the rest of us have to suffer for Adam and Eve's choice?

#QUESTION: Why is God punishing US for Adam's sin?

It would be more accurate to say we are suffering the "consequences" of their action rather than we are being punished. When we say 'punish' the emphasis is on the action of the punishER. God is not punishing us for the actions of Adam and Eve, he punished them and their children would be effected by THEIR punsihment.

To illustrate: If a father is irresponisble and crashes the car, the whole family, including any children that weren't even alive when it happened, suffer. The family may go for years without a car, the children may have to walk to school, worse someone may have been injured and suffer permient pain

In a similar way, humans a suffering the consequences of our first parents "crashing the family car". Adam and Eve lost our original paradise home and incurred physical, emotional and spiritual damage that every human that subsequently came would suffer in one way or another. The only way to avoid that is ... to not be born human. And the only way to avoid passing on the effects of their error is to not have children.

The plan was that we all descended from on couple, so we would ultimately be 'family'. A great plan until the parents of that family deliberately did something that meant that all their children would be born "defective". Not our fault but our problem nonetheless.

Why weren't we each given the choice to be "disconnected from God" or not?

This is like asking why were we not given the choice to be born a boy or a girl or be born an anetelop. We are the descendents of our first parents and automatically inherit the characteristics they pass on.

I'm not sure how else to respond to that other than it simply doesn't coincide with what we know about reality.

Not good enough, we clearly inherit our characteristics through DNA. If you don't know how to respond, may I suggest you don't.

The final paragraph seems to me to be an excuse. An omnipotent being doesn't require means to an end: anything that it wants to occur will simply occur.

This is true. I have explained his reasons for allowing what has occured to do so.


Respect
JW



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[Filthy Tugboat]

1) Why do the rest of us have to suffer for Adam and Eve's choice?

#QUESTION: Why is God punishing US for Adam's sin?

It would be more accurate to say we are suffering the "consequences" of their action rather than we are being punished. When we say 'punish' the emphasis is on the action of the punishER. God is not punishing us for the actions of Adam and Eve, he punished them and their children would be effected by THEIR punsihment.

That comment still infers that God is punishing us for their mistake. He created everything that exists, including the process that allowed the children to suffer the consequences of their parents actions. Why does such a process exist if a benevolent God is the one that created everything?

To illustrate: If a father is irresponisble and crashes the car, the whole family, including any children that weren't even alive when it happened, suffer. The family may go for years without a car, the children may have to walk to school, worse someone may have been injured and suffer permient pain

The problem with this is the father was not God and did not set up the scenario that caused the family to lose so much.

In a similar way, humans a suffering the consequences of our first parents "crashing the family car". Adam and Eve lost our original paradise home and incurred physical, emotional and spiritual damage that every human that subsequently came would suffer in one way or another. The only way to avoid that is ... to not be born human. And the only way to avoid passing on the effects of their error is to not have children.

Granted but why was the system set up to result in these consequences?

Why weren't we each given the choice to be "disconnected from God" or not?

This is like asking why were we not given the choice to be born a boy or a girl or be born an anetelop. We are the descendents of our first parents and automatically inherit the characteristics they pass on.

Why? Why did God design a system like this? how is this benevolent?

The final paragraph seems to me to be an excuse. An omnipotent being doesn't require means to an end: anything that it wants to occur will simply occur.

This is true. I have explained his reasons for allowing what has occured to do so.


Respect
JW

I didn't see the anything explaining God's motives, perhaps you could outline it for me?

[JehovahsWitness]

... why was the system set up to result in these consequences?

Why a universe of cause and effect?

Basically you are asking why did God set up a universe governed by the basic principle of cause and effect: for every action there is a corresponding reaction.

Because that is the only way intelligent beings can exis happily. The very fact that you are asking the question "why" is evidence of our nature to seek balance and reason. To put intelligent beings in a universe were cause was totally unrelated to effect, where an artist painting a canvas had no control over the end result, where no action had a corresponding RE-action, you have a chaotic universe and the only way for intelligent moral beings to be happy in such a universe is to remove their intelligence and morals.

If God wanted to create automats, who expect nothing from any action and can exist totally unpurturbed by an illogical sequence of events, he would have done so. In creating intelligent life he respected what that intelligence would require to remain sane: order whether that be physical or moral.

Thus a woman does not have a human baby 3 out of ten times and parents don't wait with baited breath if their union will result the mother giving birth to a human being or a canalope. When wheat is sewn in a field there is not a 40% chance wheat or small metal balls will grow and the sun rises every morning without fail.

It is not just the OP that is facinated with finding order and logic where they perceive disorder, these questions are what MAKE us human - to place humans in a universe were there was no underlining principle by which they might feel a measure of control is to place them in hell.

A benovelent God would not do such a thing.


#QUESTION: But doesn't such a causal based closed system create the potential for a cycle of misery?

The answer is obviously yes - any appraisal of the evening news will make that clear. A benovalent God will find a way to break the cycle and restore balance a heartless God will just enjoy the show. But a rescue plan exists separate from the necessity of the system.

[100%atheist]

If He is able but not willing,
Then He is malevolent.

I have heard a reasonable argument addressing the shown part of your OP. The argument was that God's internal morality can be entirely different from our morality. Thus, discussing if he is malevolent makes no sense because we don't know God's moral principles. (The Bible is the word of God FOR humans, not for God).

This seems to be the only reasonable argument I know. However, my response is that we certainly at minimum should not glorify such God.

[LiamOS]

... why was the system set up to result in these consequences?

Why a universe of cause and effect?

Basically you are asking why did God set up a universe governed by the basic principle of cause and effect: for every action there is a corresponding reaction.

If cause and effect are absolute, it follows that God should be capable of foreknowledge of everything, choices and such included.
Coupled with the fact that God created us, it follows that every event which occurs is caused by God in a very direct way. With this, I don't see how the suffering of one is justified by some supposed choice made by a part of this machine.

[JehovahsWitness]

... why was the system set up to result in these consequences?

Why a universe of cause and effect?

Basically you are asking why did God set up a universe governed by the basic principle of cause and effect: for every action there is a corresponding reaction.

If cause and effect are absolute, it follows that God should be capable of foreknowledge of everything, choices and such included.

Yes God is CAPABLE of forknowlege of every thought and event. Whether he choses to USE that capacity is another issue, a moral one. Being (cap)able of cooking is not necessarily synonymous with cooking.

... God created us, it follows that every event which occurs is caused by God in a very direct way.

Creating something and causing that thing to perform certain tasks are not the same thing. To illustrate: Is the manufacturer of a car resonsible for the speeding ticket of someone that drives it? If circumstances mean there is control over a seperate event then responsibility is shifted from the originator to the instigator.