The Gay agenda

[lastcallhall]

This is an article from Jim Daly on Foxnews and it looks like what a few of us conservative christians believe is the gay agenda moving forward to get marriage passed.

I am, naturally, personally opposed to the legalization of same-sex marriage for the simple but profound reason that it violates and contradicts the sacred text of the Bible, which I believe to be true and inspired. But on what basis should I expect people who dont believe as I do to likewise oppose same-sex marriage?

On the basis of logic, reason, common sense and the fact that preservation of traditional marriage is in the best interest of the common good, as evidenced by any number of factors, including reams of social science data and thousands of years of history.

Any discussion on the definition of marriage incites strong emotional reaction. And those of us within the orthodox Christian community understand that many in the culture see this issue very differently, and hold to very passionate views on the subject. We understand that on this matter, in some circles, that never the twain shall meet. Nevertheless, this difference of opinion does not preclude us the privilege of championing a principle we hold dear, especially since its our Christian faith that motivates us to support and defend what we believe to be Gods blueprint for human relationship. In the last half-century, progressives have exercised their own rights of cultural engagement, aggressively championing sweeping cultural changes on numerous levels. Although we may disagree with them, we certainly dont begrudge them the right to engage the process. But in this pursuit to redefine marriage, wouldnt it make sense to consider the outcomes of prior social reengineering efforts?

In the late 1960s, no-fault divorce promised to simplify, streamline and decrease the contentiousness surrounding marital breakup. Instead, it only encouraged struggling spouses to throw in the towel. Fathers abandoned their families in droves. Poverty levels skyrocketed. Prison populations increased at dramatic levels, a consequence of kids now growing up without a father in the home.

A few years later, in 1973, the Supreme Court legalized abortion in all 50 states. Supporters heralded a new era of responsibility, where every child would be a wanted child. Tragically, over 48 million babies have now been aborted and the beauty of life has been cheapened as a result, while child abuse has skyrocketed.

The expansion of welfare promised to alleviate human suffering. While in some ways noble in intent, it disincentivized work, undermined the family unit and created a perpetual cycle of dependency and poverty. Fathers were no longer needed to be an integral part of the family.

Cohabitation is yet another experiment which promised to liberate couples from the burden of marriage. The number of couples living together outside of marriage has increased ten-fold between 1960 and 2000. Over 12 million unmarried partners now live together in the United States. The result? Cohabitation not only decreases a persons appetite for marriage, it also increases the risk of divorce, should the couple ever tie the knot.

Further, a home with two unmarried partners has proven to be the most dangerous place for children in the U.S. Children who live with their mother and boyfriend are 11 times more likely to be sexually, physically, or emotionally abused than children living with their married biological parents.

In each example of social reengineering Ive noted, progressives promised good things. Sadly, the exact opposite has happened. However well-meaning the motivation, reengineering what God has designed is not only unwise, but radical and dangerous, too.

Without evidence of success to which to point, supporters of these ill-fated ventures are left with but one choice: If you cant change unfavorable outcomes, you change the minds of people as to what is considered favorable and good.

Here lies the last great frontier and the last gasp for those determined to re-engineer marriage. Those committed to this form of radicalism have systematically broken down the cultural barrier to same sex marriage by desensitizing people on the issue, stigmatizing those who oppose the movement and potentially criminalizing anyone who stands in opposition to them. The irony in our cultural discussion currently, is if you support traditional marriage, you are the one perceived by the cultural elite to be the radical.

Consider the case of a New Mexico couple who own and operate a photography business. When they kindly refused to shoot a lesbian marriage ceremony, they were summarily brought up on human rights violations by the New Mexico Human Rights Commission. They were fined for not accepting the job. While on the other hand, Christian organizations are now being singled out and suppliers are threatening to no longer supply them with critical support functions like computer technology because of their stand in opposition to same-sex marriage. Those in favor of same-sex marriage do not see the contradiction in these two examples. One group must perform the services and is fined for not doing so (in the name of human rights); the other is allowed to default on their contract because of alleged bigoted behavior on the part of the religious organization (with no regard for religious expression).

If religious liberty is lost in America, we will cease to be the nation our Founders intended us to be. Our rights will no longer be derived from God but from man, and therefore, dangerously beholden to political despots. I dont think Thomas Jefferson intended that to be the outcome for our great nation when he wrote the famous Danbury Baptist Church letter which mentioned the separation of church and state. Contrary to conventional wisdom, President Jefferson was expressing a concern that the church needed to be protected from the state, not the state from the church. It appears his fears are now being realized.

Jim Daly is president and host of "Focus on the Family."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/ ... z1NJdkc5AN


The questions I have for debate are:

1. Is what happened to the New Mexico couple proof that gay marriage will threaten christians and the church from living our faith?

2. If gay marriage is legal in the entire US would churches be forced to recognize gay couples and be forced to hire gay people to positions even if that would be against our beliefs?

[lastcallhall]

How does Jesus feel about lying?

Revelation 21:8
New King James Version (NKJV)

8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,[a] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

They will spend eternity in hell. I believe this so I REALLY must believe I am telling the truth

[lastcallhall]

I'm not asking lastcallhall to be convinced by evidence nor to give up his prejudiced view.

Thanks

I'm just asking that he recognize that his view is not the one taken by a reasonable or rational person.

I disagree with this as I know many many rational and smart people that have my views.

[lastcallhall]

Since you found your truth after reading god's word, please support your truth by giving us the verse you are using to come to this claim.

I did in a previous post

Ok. You claim to get your truth from god's word.
Psalm 11:5 The LORD tests righteous people, but he hates wicked people and the ones who love violence.

You think this verse fits me fine but if I am right and God's word is against the homosexual lifestyle I would be ok.

You're lucky that you will never have to stand before said god.

You are entitled to your opinion and oddly it does not bother me. This is what I don't understand about the debate about not calling the homosexual lifestyle sin. People get offended that I say it but when you tell me Jesus would not be happy with me I am not offended at all. Can you see the double standard here?

[lastcallhall]

Until you provide actual evidence in the manner that this forum defines it, cease use of logical fallacies, and choose to acknowledge (or attempt to point out errors) the evidence that has been presented counter to your point, I will not be giving your responses thorough replies.

Thanks for the debate and showing me all the fallacies I use. I am sorry you are finished with our debate.

[Deadclown]

Until you provide actual evidence in the manner that this forum defines it, cease use of logical fallacies, and choose to acknowledge (or attempt to point out errors) the evidence that has been presented counter to your point, I will not be giving your responses thorough replies.

Thanks for the debate and showing me all the fallacies I use. I am sorry you are finished with our debate.

You are quite welcome on both counts. I am happy to continue the debate per the above requirements. I earnestly hope that you can learn to avoid common logical fallacies in the future or cease them when they are pointed out. It took me a while to get the hang of them too.

[Autodidact]

We're not talking about sin.

Sin enters the equation but ok if you don't want to talk about it.

It's not that I don't want to talk about it, it's just that it's irrelevant to what we were talking about, which is your false statement that children do better with a mom and a dad, than if they have two moms.

We're talking about child welfare and effective parenting. Surely you don't think you have the right to impose your religious beliefs on my parenting?

I am not telling you what to do, I am just giving you what the Bible says and other people who believe the Bible. You can reject the Bible, me, and everyone else that you do not agree with.

First, the Bible says nothing on the subject, so that's also false. Second, if you want to talk about what you think the Bible says about something, then be honest and say that. You didn't. You made a factual statement which happens to be false and damaging. I'm waiting for you to own up to that and atone for it.

You have done something very wrong. You have made detrimental false statements about an entire group of people. That's known as bigotry, as well as dishonesty, and I think it's wrong.

In your mind I am wrong

Yes, I think telling damaging lies about other people is wrong. I understand that you don't, and your morality is up to you, as long as you can sleep at night. In the meantime, you are hurting me and many other innocent people, so would you please stop? Thanks.

But then, I'm not Christian, your moral system may allow you to make bigoted false statements like that. Does it?

It is not bigoted or false. I can give you a long list of christians that feel the Bible is very clear. You can reject them as well but please don't tell me I am lying.

Your statement was false. We have proven that in this thread. It is not based in reality. It's not supported by the facts. Your statement was not about what the Bible says. You made a statement about children and parents. Your statement was false. It was also damaging. In your religion, is making false, damaging statements about other people a sin?

[Autodidact]

Second, most Christians do not agree with your interpretation of the Bible.

Really, where is that fact I would love to see it.

Around 20-25% of Americans are not Christian at all. Around 25% are Catholic. All other denominations make up smaller percentages. Therefore, no matter what flavor of Christian you are, most Americans disagree with you about your interpretation of the Bible. Worldwide, there are many fewer Christians. Info from Adherents.com.

Third, where in the Bible does it say that children with two moms don't do as well as children with a mom and dad? I can't find that passage.

It does not mention your specific question but I believe God makes it very clear his view on marriage and the homosexual lifestyle.

O.K., so first of all, it isn't true. Second, contrary to what you said, it's not in the Bible. Now would you please stop saying it? If you have any humility, you may also want to apologize for saying it.

this tells me God's view on homosexuality

We weren't discussing your interpretation of God's view on homosexuality. We were discussing whether children do better with a mom and dad than with two moms. They don't. It's a false statement.

Try to stay on point. We're not talking about Biblical morality. We're talking about child welfare.

sorry

Please stop spreading your vicious, harmful lies around the internet. Thank you.

You have no idea who they are.

I said IMO

You are entitled to your own opinions. You are not entitled to your own facts.

They are the mainstream, overwhelming majority of doctors, social workers, psychologists and adoption experts in our country. You have a tendency to judge people based on stereotypes and prejudice. Didn't your mother teach you better than that?

I did not say all, I said most. This is from my experience, nothing more

Because you've met them?

Personally, I think that jumping to conclusions based on nothing more than mere prejudice is a bad thing. Apparently you don't.

I know it's hard to admit error. Think of it as practice in humility, which is good for you.

I am a very humble person but I have not made a mistake with the Bible

Please turn off the noise in your head for a moment and listen. WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE BIBLE. We're talking about a false factual statement you made about children and parenting. Your statement was false.

It's not so hard, all you have to do is admit you were wrong. Any truly humble person can do it.

[Autodidact]

I don't know your heart, only your actions. Your actions in this discussion have been less than decent.

I don't feel that way, I do not think you are a bad person at all, in fact most gay people I know are some of the nicest people I have met. I have no problem with you personally.

And, unlike you, they do not go around slandering other people.

I don't care how you feel. I care how you act. Telling lies about other people is not nice. Didn't your parents teach you that?

Your assertion was not about your religious belief. It was a factual assertion about the real world, and it was false. What do you call it when someone makes false assertions about other people?

You can reject my conclusions but I am not lying. You can say I am reading the Bible wrong but I am not lying about my beliefs.

I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE BIBLE. I'm not talking about your beliefs. I'm talking about a factual statement you made, which happens to be incorrect. I reject your conclusions because they are false. When someone persists in a falsehood, what do you call it?

I don't care who they work for, as long as they use good scientific methodology.

How do you know they are not?

As I have said several times, you have not presented a single study to critique, reject or accept. If you ever do, I will review it with an open mind, regardless of the religion of who did it--unlike you.

[lastcallhall]

I will answer your questions with one post. I am not lying. I believe that God's word says marriage should be between a man and a woman and that it is the best environment for a child. If a lifestyle is sinful it can't be good for a child. Moving away from the Bible I trust groups like Exodus and many good christian groups that deal with this subject. You can claim they are all lying, all misguided, and that they are flat out wrong. I have no problem if you don't put two cents worth of value into what they say or think but I am not lying about either one. I want to make sure I covered that both the Bible and non Bible sources, IMO, show that it is better for a child to be raised by a mom and a dad. I hope this clears it up and again I am sorry that you are so offended by my views.

[Autodidact]

I will answer your questions with one post. I am not lying. I believe that God's word says marriage should be between a man and a woman and that it is the best environment for a child. If a lifestyle is sinful it can't be good for a child. Moving away from the Bible I trust groups like Exodus and many good christian groups that deal with this subject. You can claim they are all lying, all misguided, and that they are flat out wrong. I have no problem if you don't put two cents worth of value into what they say or think but I am not lying about either one. I want to make sure I covered that both the Bible and non Bible sources, IMO, show that it is better for a child to be raised by a mom and a dad. I hope this clears it up and again I am sorry that you are so offended by my views.

I am not offended by your views. I don't care about your views. I am angry because you persist in making false, defamatory, harmful statements about me.

O.K., you believe that the Bible says that heterosexual marriage is the best environment for a chil.d (even though it doesn't) It is your right to believe whatever you like about that. Here's how you can share that with us, and still be honest, "I believe that the Bible says that heterosexual marriage is the best environment for a child." That's not what you said. You said that children do better when they grow up with a mom and a dad. That is not about your opinion, and not about the Bible. It is a factual statement about real people in the real world, and it is false. You have been shown that it is false.

By refusing to admit your error, and publicly defaming and harming other people, you have shown the rest of us everything we need to know about your type of Christianity. Thank you.

Now, here's where I'm coming from. I am a lesbian. I have 3 children. The oldest, whom I planned for, gave birth to and raised in a lesbian environment, is a wonderful adult whom I respect and admire. She has excelled in academics, and is preparing to spend her life helping alleviate poverty. She has never gotten into trouble, and is everything anyone would want in a child.

The youngest one, whom I adopted after her irresponsible heterosexual parents were not able to care for her, has terrific challenges. Parenting her is the hardest thing I have ever done. We lesbians are the only people who have made a permanent commitment to her, and who have kept that commitment. Our lives are dedicated to saving a child who was failed by heterosexuals. The Department of Human Services appreciates our willingness to do the hard work of helping her grow up.

And people like you go around slandering us, with no basis other than your utter prejudice.

Now do you understand why people like you make me angry? How many foster children have you adopted, lastcallhall?

When lesbians start having kids they can't take care of, and you adopt them and try to help them heal, then you can start complaining about the quality of lesbian parenting.

I don't care what your religious beliefs are--that's your right. It's when you start harming me and my family that I object.

I'm not offended; I'm angry. I hate it when people lie about me.