The Gay agenda

[lastcallhall]

This is an article from Jim Daly on Foxnews and it looks like what a few of us conservative christians believe is the gay agenda moving forward to get marriage passed.

I am, naturally, personally opposed to the legalization of same-sex marriage for the simple but profound reason that it violates and contradicts the sacred text of the Bible, which I believe to be true and inspired. But on what basis should I expect people who dont believe as I do to likewise oppose same-sex marriage?

On the basis of logic, reason, common sense and the fact that preservation of traditional marriage is in the best interest of the common good, as evidenced by any number of factors, including reams of social science data and thousands of years of history.

Any discussion on the definition of marriage incites strong emotional reaction. And those of us within the orthodox Christian community understand that many in the culture see this issue very differently, and hold to very passionate views on the subject. We understand that on this matter, in some circles, that never the twain shall meet. Nevertheless, this difference of opinion does not preclude us the privilege of championing a principle we hold dear, especially since its our Christian faith that motivates us to support and defend what we believe to be Gods blueprint for human relationship. In the last half-century, progressives have exercised their own rights of cultural engagement, aggressively championing sweeping cultural changes on numerous levels. Although we may disagree with them, we certainly dont begrudge them the right to engage the process. But in this pursuit to redefine marriage, wouldnt it make sense to consider the outcomes of prior social reengineering efforts?

In the late 1960s, no-fault divorce promised to simplify, streamline and decrease the contentiousness surrounding marital breakup. Instead, it only encouraged struggling spouses to throw in the towel. Fathers abandoned their families in droves. Poverty levels skyrocketed. Prison populations increased at dramatic levels, a consequence of kids now growing up without a father in the home.

A few years later, in 1973, the Supreme Court legalized abortion in all 50 states. Supporters heralded a new era of responsibility, where every child would be a wanted child. Tragically, over 48 million babies have now been aborted and the beauty of life has been cheapened as a result, while child abuse has skyrocketed.

The expansion of welfare promised to alleviate human suffering. While in some ways noble in intent, it disincentivized work, undermined the family unit and created a perpetual cycle of dependency and poverty. Fathers were no longer needed to be an integral part of the family.

Cohabitation is yet another experiment which promised to liberate couples from the burden of marriage. The number of couples living together outside of marriage has increased ten-fold between 1960 and 2000. Over 12 million unmarried partners now live together in the United States. The result? Cohabitation not only decreases a persons appetite for marriage, it also increases the risk of divorce, should the couple ever tie the knot.

Further, a home with two unmarried partners has proven to be the most dangerous place for children in the U.S. Children who live with their mother and boyfriend are 11 times more likely to be sexually, physically, or emotionally abused than children living with their married biological parents.

In each example of social reengineering Ive noted, progressives promised good things. Sadly, the exact opposite has happened. However well-meaning the motivation, reengineering what God has designed is not only unwise, but radical and dangerous, too.

Without evidence of success to which to point, supporters of these ill-fated ventures are left with but one choice: If you cant change unfavorable outcomes, you change the minds of people as to what is considered favorable and good.

Here lies the last great frontier and the last gasp for those determined to re-engineer marriage. Those committed to this form of radicalism have systematically broken down the cultural barrier to same sex marriage by desensitizing people on the issue, stigmatizing those who oppose the movement and potentially criminalizing anyone who stands in opposition to them. The irony in our cultural discussion currently, is if you support traditional marriage, you are the one perceived by the cultural elite to be the radical.

Consider the case of a New Mexico couple who own and operate a photography business. When they kindly refused to shoot a lesbian marriage ceremony, they were summarily brought up on human rights violations by the New Mexico Human Rights Commission. They were fined for not accepting the job. While on the other hand, Christian organizations are now being singled out and suppliers are threatening to no longer supply them with critical support functions like computer technology because of their stand in opposition to same-sex marriage. Those in favor of same-sex marriage do not see the contradiction in these two examples. One group must perform the services and is fined for not doing so (in the name of human rights); the other is allowed to default on their contract because of alleged bigoted behavior on the part of the religious organization (with no regard for religious expression).

If religious liberty is lost in America, we will cease to be the nation our Founders intended us to be. Our rights will no longer be derived from God but from man, and therefore, dangerously beholden to political despots. I dont think Thomas Jefferson intended that to be the outcome for our great nation when he wrote the famous Danbury Baptist Church letter which mentioned the separation of church and state. Contrary to conventional wisdom, President Jefferson was expressing a concern that the church needed to be protected from the state, not the state from the church. It appears his fears are now being realized.

Jim Daly is president and host of "Focus on the Family."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/ ... z1NJdkc5AN


The questions I have for debate are:

1. Is what happened to the New Mexico couple proof that gay marriage will threaten christians and the church from living our faith?

2. If gay marriage is legal in the entire US would churches be forced to recognize gay couples and be forced to hire gay people to positions even if that would be against our beliefs?

[Autodidact]

lastcall: I assume that you believe one of the worst things a person can do is to fail to accept Jesus, and that it's best for children's souls to grow with Christian parents. Would you say, "Children do better when they have Christian parents rather than Jewish parents?" That's the kind of bigoted statement you made about lesbians. For some reason, when it's gay people, you feel it's fine to throw out bigoted slurs like that.

[lastcallhall]

I am not offended by your views. I don't care about your views. I am angry because you persist in making false, defamatory, harmful statements about me.

I have done no such thing and just because you don't AGREE with what I say or my views you can say I am lying. Go ahead and keep saying it but it will not make it so.

O.K., you believe that the Bible says that heterosexual marriage is the best environment for a chil.d (even though it doesn't) It is your right to believe whatever you like about that. Here's how you can share that with us, and still be honest, "I believe that the Bible says that heterosexual marriage is the best environment for a child." That's not what you said. You said that children do better when they grow up with a mom and a dad. That is not about your opinion, and not about the Bible. It is a factual statement about real people in the real world, and it is false. You have been shown that it is false.

Sure that is what I said and I stand by all of it, that if the best situation for a child is with a mother and a father the child is better off. However you want to say it or phrase it but I believe that is true when you follow God's plan. Remember the truth is an actual thing, it is not subjective nor is it based on your situation or feelings.

By refusing to admit your error, and publicly defaming and harming other people, you have shown the rest of us everything we need to know about your type of Christianity. Thank you.

I won't admit to doing something wrong when I did nothing wrong

Now, here's where I'm coming from. I am a lesbian. I have 3 children. The oldest, whom I planned for, gave birth to and raised in a lesbian environment, is a wonderful adult whom I respect and admire. She has excelled in academics, and is preparing to spend her life helping alleviate poverty. She has never gotten into trouble, and is everything anyone would want in a child.

The youngest one, whom I adopted after her irresponsible heterosexual parents were not able to care for her, has terrific challenges. Parenting her is the hardest thing I have ever done. We lesbians are the only people who have made a permanent commitment to her, and who have kept that commitment. Our lives are dedicated to saving a child who was failed by heterosexuals. The Department of Human Services appreciates our willingness to do the hard work of helping her grow up.

And people like you go around slandering us, with no basis other than your utter prejudice.

I never said you are a bad person or do not love your children very, very much. I know there are bad people in every walk of life and a straight couple can do horrible damage to a child but it still does not change my view.

Now do you understand why people like you make me angry? How many foster children have you adopted, lastcallhall?

No foster children, 3 girls of my own. I don't understand why you want me so badly to change my view? Why do I make you so upset? People call me names, I don't care. I debate muslims they think I am going to hell for worshiping Jesus, I don't care. I have been told I am going to limit my kids future, I don't care. You could tell me I am the worst person you have ever spoke to and you wish I was dead and it would not change my life. I guess things I don't agree with I don't take personally or care about. If you started a religion that said all christians will go to hell and we should have our heads reprogramed it really would not bother me. One last time if there were no Bible believing christians left on earth it still would not make the Bible untrue.

When lesbians start having kids they can't take care of, and you adopt them and try to help them heal, then you can start complaining about the quality of lesbian parenting.

I don't care what your religious beliefs are--that's your right. It's when you start harming me and my family that I object.

I'm not offended; I'm angry. I hate it when people lie about me.

You seem to let it bother you, please don't. I don't want to upset you but I have not lied.

[lastcallhall]

lastcall: I assume that you believe one of the worst things a person can do is to fail to accept Jesus, and that it's best for children's souls to grow with Christian parents.

Of course the best thing a person can do is accept Jesus as Lord and saviour.

Would you say, "Children do better when they have Christian parents rather than Jewish parents?" That's the kind of bigoted statement you made about lesbians. For some reason, when it's gay people, you feel it's fine to throw out bigoted slurs like that.

First there is a male and a female in the relationship and the studies I have seen (you don't think they are worth anything) say kids need a male and female influence in their life. Second the kids have been born to the husband and wife, homosexuals can not have a child together. It is not the same thing because I do not go around to every house and make sure Jesus is being taught. I would never advocate to take away anyones natural kids.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 651:

Of course the best thing a person can do is accept Jesus as Lord and saviour.

Your opinion is noted. Mine'd be that folks'd accept others, and not try to discriminate against them because they fear the wrath of a god they can't even show exists, much less to have an opinion on the comings and goings of humans.

First there is a male and a female in the relationship and the studies I have seen (you don't think they are worth anything) say kids need a male and female influence in their life.

Why don't you submit such studies for examination before you tell folks how they're gonna react - unless you know the studies are faulty.

1st challenge.

Second the kids have been born to the husband and wife, homosexuals can not have a child together.

A gay dude can't get a lesbian chick pregnant?

It is not the same thing because I do not go around to every house and make sure Jesus is being taught.

Why bother going door to door when you can just legislate religious bigotry?

I would never advocate to take away anyones natural kids.

Though you seem to fret not at taking away their rights.

[JoeyKnothead]

lastcall: I assume that you believe one of the worst things a person can do is to fail to accept Jesus, and that it's best for children's souls to grow with Christian parents. Would you say, "Children do better when they have Christian parents rather than Jewish parents?" That's the kind of bigoted statement you made about lesbians. For some reason, when it's gay people, you feel it's fine to throw out bigoted slurs like that.

When it's my unseen sky daddy saying it, I can't be blamed.

[Autodidact]

I am not offended by your views. I don't care about your views. I am angry because you persist in making false, defamatory, harmful statements about me.

I have done no such thing and just because you don't AGREE with what I say or my views you can say I am lying. Go ahead and keep saying it but it will not make it so.

Show us that it isn't. Cite the studies that support your assertion.

O.K., you believe that the Bible says that heterosexual marriage is the best environment for a chil.d (even though it doesn't) It is your right to believe whatever you like about that. Here's how you can share that with us, and still be honest, "I believe that the Bible says that heterosexual marriage is the best environment for a child." That's not what you said. You said that children do better when they grow up with a mom and a dad. That is not about your opinion, and not about the Bible. It is a factual statement about real people in the real world, and it is false. You have been shown that it is false.

Sure that is what I said and I stand by all of it, that if the best situation for a child is with a mother and a father the child is better of.f

Is this your opinion, or fact?

However you want to say it or phrase it but I believe that is true when you follow God's plan

Your believing it does not make it so. Can you cite any support for your belief?.

. Remember the truth is an actual thing, it is not subjective nor is it based on your situation or feelings.

Dang, there goes another irony meter.

By refusing to admit your error, and publicly defaming and harming other people, you have shown the rest of us everything we need to know about your type of Christianity. Thank you.

I won't admit to doing something wrong when I did nothing wrong

Yes, I understand. In your moral view, it's perfectly o.k. to make unsupported slurs on other people. Please, continue to demonstrate how your sort of Christian behaves.

Now, here's where I'm coming from. I am a lesbian. I have 3 children. The oldest, whom I planned for, gave birth to and raised in a lesbian environment, is a wonderful adult whom I respect and admire. She has excelled in academics, and is preparing to spend her life helping alleviate poverty. She has never gotten into trouble, and is everything anyone would want in a child.

The youngest one, whom I adopted after her irresponsible heterosexual parents were not able to care for her, has terrific challenges. Parenting her is the hardest thing I have ever done. We lesbians are the only people who have made a permanent commitment to her, and who have kept that commitment. Our lives are dedicated to saving a child who was failed by heterosexuals. The Department of Human Services appreciates our willingness to do the hard work of helping her grow up.

And people like you go around slandering us, with no basis other than your utter prejudice.

I never said you are a bad person or do not love your children very, very much. I know there are bad people in every walk of life and a straight couple can do horrible damage to a child but it still does not change my view.

It's not about what kind of person I am; it's about parenting--good parenting. That's what I do, and I do not appreciate people like you going around saying I don't.

Now do you understand why people like you make me angry? How many foster children have you adopted, lastcallhall?

No foster children, 3 girls of my own. I don't understand why you want me so badly to change my view?

I don't care about your view. I believe I've said this 3 or 4 times. I care about your actions, and how they are harming me and innocent children.

Why do I make you so upset? People call me names, I don't care.

Just as I thought, virtual inability to see things from the other person's point of view.

I debate muslims they think I am going to hell for worshiping Jesus, I don't care. I have been told I am going to limit my kids future, I don't care. You could tell me I am the worst person you have ever spoke to and you wish I was dead and it would not change my life. I guess things I don't agree with I don't take personally or care about. If you started a religion that said all christians will go to hell and we should have our heads reprogramed it really would not bother me. One last time if there were no Bible believing christians left on earth it still would not make the Bible untrue.

Would you kindly stop talking about the Bible, which has nothing whatsoever to do with our conversation? Unless you're saying that it's believing the bible that causes people to behave as you have?

When lesbians start having kids they can't take care of, and you adopt them and try to help them heal, then you can start complaining about the quality of lesbian parenting.

I don't care what your religious beliefs are--that's your right. It's when you start harming me and my family that I object.

I'm not offended; I'm angry. I hate it when people lie about me.

You seem to let it bother you, please don't. I don't want to upset you but I have not lied.

I didn't think you would have the humility to admit your actions and atone for them.

[Autodidact]

I am not offended by your views. I don't care about your views. I am angry because you persist in making false, defamatory, harmful statements about me.

I have done no such thing and just because you don't AGREE with what I say or my views you can say I am lying. Go ahead and keep saying it but it will not make it so.

Show us that it isn't. Cite the studies that support your assertion.

O.K., you believe that the Bible says that heterosexual marriage is the best environment for a chil.d (even though it doesn't) It is your right to believe whatever you like about that. Here's how you can share that with us, and still be honest, "I believe that the Bible says that heterosexual marriage is the best environment for a child." That's not what you said. You said that children do better when they grow up with a mom and a dad. That is not about your opinion, and not about the Bible. It is a factual statement about real people in the real world, and it is false. You have been shown that it is false.

Sure that is what I said and I stand by all of it, that if the best situation for a child is with a mother and a father the child is better of.f

Is this your opinion, or fact?

However you want to say it or phrase it but I believe that is true when you follow God's plan

Your believing it does not make it so. Can you cite any support for your belief?.

. Remember the truth is an actual thing, it is not subjective nor is it based on your situation or feelings.

Dang, there goes another irony meter.

By refusing to admit your error, and publicly defaming and harming other people, you have shown the rest of us everything we need to know about your type of Christianity. Thank you.

I won't admit to doing something wrong when I did nothing wrong

Yes, I understand. In your moral view, it's perfectly o.k. to make unsupported slurs on other people. Please, continue to demonstrate how your sort of Christian behaves.

Now, here's where I'm coming from. I am a lesbian. I have 3 children. The oldest, whom I planned for, gave birth to and raised in a lesbian environment, is a wonderful adult whom I respect and admire. She has excelled in academics, and is preparing to spend her life helping alleviate poverty. She has never gotten into trouble, and is everything anyone would want in a child.

The youngest one, whom I adopted after her irresponsible heterosexual parents were not able to care for her, has terrific challenges. Parenting her is the hardest thing I have ever done. We lesbians are the only people who have made a permanent commitment to her, and who have kept that commitment. Our lives are dedicated to saving a child who was failed by heterosexuals. The Department of Human Services appreciates our willingness to do the hard work of helping her grow up.

And people like you go around slandering us, with no basis other than your utter prejudice.

I never said you are a bad person or do not love your children very, very much. I know there are bad people in every walk of life and a straight couple can do horrible damage to a child but it still does not change my view.

It's not about what kind of person I am; it's about parenting--good parenting. That's what I do, and I do not appreciate people like you going around saying I don't.

Now do you understand why people like you make me angry? How many foster children have you adopted, lastcallhall?

No foster children, 3 girls of my own. I don't understand why you want me so badly to change my view?

I don't care about your view. I believe I've said this 3 or 4 times. I care about your actions, and how they are harming me and innocent children.

Why do I make you so upset? People call me names, I don't care.

Just as I thought, virtual inability to see things from the other person's point of view.

I debate muslims they think I am going to hell for worshiping Jesus, I don't care. I have been told I am going to limit my kids future, I don't care. You could tell me I am the worst person you have ever spoke to and you wish I was dead and it would not change my life. I guess things I don't agree with I don't take personally or care about. If you started a religion that said all christians will go to hell and we should have our heads reprogramed it really would not bother me. One last time if there were no Bible believing christians left on earth it still would not make the Bible untrue.

Would you kindly stop talking about the Bible, which has nothing whatsoever to do with our conversation? Unless you're saying that it's believing the bible that causes people to behave as you have?

When lesbians start having kids they can't take care of, and you adopt them and try to help them heal, then you can start complaining about the quality of lesbian parenting.

I don't care what your religious beliefs are--that's your right. It's when you start harming me and my family that I object.

I'm not offended; I'm angry. I hate it when people lie about me.

You seem to let it bother you, please don't. I don't want to upset you but I have not lied.

I didn't think you would have the humility to admit your actions and atone for them.

[lastcallhall]

Your opinion is noted. Mine'd be that folks'd accept others, and not try to discriminate against them because they fear the wrath of a god they can't even show exists, much less to have an opinion on the comings and goings of humans.

I don't disagree with you, I will force nobody to accept Jesus or my views

Why don't you submit such studies for examination before you tell folks how they're gonna react - unless you know the studies are faulty.

1st challenge.

I will find a few more but like the first article I posted it was quickly dismissed. The people who wrote them don't have the right credentials or they do not belong to the right group. How about all the work Exodus International does? Look at what is happening to Michele Bachmann, why does it matter if "most" experts disagree with what the clinic does? Why because they do not follow the liberal line.

A gay dude can't get a lesbian chick pregnant?

Yes he could but that is the point it takes a man and a woman to have a baby.

Why bother going door to door when you can just legislate religious bigotry?

Or we could just go along with the secular humanist ideas that people have?

Though you seem to fret not at taking away their rights.

They have the same rights I do

[lastcallhall]

When it's my unseen sky daddy saying it, I can't be blamed.

You can always blame me for following God's word. I will please God, not the world

[lastcallhall]

Show us that it isn't. Cite the studies that support your assertion.

Here you go and let me guess you don't like Exodus, they may not count.

http://exodusinternational.org/2009/12/ ... -adoption/

Is this your opinion, or fact?

I feel it is both

Yes, I understand. In your moral view, it's perfectly o.k. to make unsupported slurs on other people. Please, continue to demonstrate how your sort of Christian behaves.

It is not unsupported at all, I have posted 2 articles now. You just don't agree.

I don't care about your view. I believe I've said this 3 or 4 times. I care about your actions, and how they are harming me and innocent children.

And I think by not talking to your kids about Jesus is the worst thing a parent can do.

Just as I thought, virtual inability to see things from the other person's point of view.

Not even close, would it surprise you to know I watch MSNBC and their talking heads more than Fox News. I love Fox News but I always want to hear what the other side is thinking and talking about. I don't agree with 99% of what they say but the arguments intrigue me.

Would you kindly stop talking about the Bible, which has nothing whatsoever to do with our conversation? Unless you're saying that it's believing the bible that causes people to behave as you have?

Yes the Bible shapes all of my views. Before I was a born again christian I would not have cared less what anybody did because I really only cared about what made me happy.

I didn't think you would have the humility to admit your actions and atone for them.

I won't be pushed to say I have done something wrong when I have not. I understand why you are upset but like the Bible says it is sharper than a two edged sword.

Hebrews 4:12
New King James Version (NKJV)

12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

This tells me that the word of God will divide people because it draws lines in the sand about tough issues.