The Gay agenda

[lastcallhall]

This is an article from Jim Daly on Foxnews and it looks like what a few of us conservative christians believe is the gay agenda moving forward to get marriage passed.

I am, naturally, personally opposed to the legalization of same-sex marriage for the simple but profound reason that it violates and contradicts the sacred text of the Bible, which I believe to be true and inspired. But on what basis should I expect people who dont believe as I do to likewise oppose same-sex marriage?

On the basis of logic, reason, common sense and the fact that preservation of traditional marriage is in the best interest of the common good, as evidenced by any number of factors, including reams of social science data and thousands of years of history.

Any discussion on the definition of marriage incites strong emotional reaction. And those of us within the orthodox Christian community understand that many in the culture see this issue very differently, and hold to very passionate views on the subject. We understand that on this matter, in some circles, that never the twain shall meet. Nevertheless, this difference of opinion does not preclude us the privilege of championing a principle we hold dear, especially since its our Christian faith that motivates us to support and defend what we believe to be Gods blueprint for human relationship. In the last half-century, progressives have exercised their own rights of cultural engagement, aggressively championing sweeping cultural changes on numerous levels. Although we may disagree with them, we certainly dont begrudge them the right to engage the process. But in this pursuit to redefine marriage, wouldnt it make sense to consider the outcomes of prior social reengineering efforts?

In the late 1960s, no-fault divorce promised to simplify, streamline and decrease the contentiousness surrounding marital breakup. Instead, it only encouraged struggling spouses to throw in the towel. Fathers abandoned their families in droves. Poverty levels skyrocketed. Prison populations increased at dramatic levels, a consequence of kids now growing up without a father in the home.

A few years later, in 1973, the Supreme Court legalized abortion in all 50 states. Supporters heralded a new era of responsibility, where every child would be a wanted child. Tragically, over 48 million babies have now been aborted and the beauty of life has been cheapened as a result, while child abuse has skyrocketed.

The expansion of welfare promised to alleviate human suffering. While in some ways noble in intent, it disincentivized work, undermined the family unit and created a perpetual cycle of dependency and poverty. Fathers were no longer needed to be an integral part of the family.

Cohabitation is yet another experiment which promised to liberate couples from the burden of marriage. The number of couples living together outside of marriage has increased ten-fold between 1960 and 2000. Over 12 million unmarried partners now live together in the United States. The result? Cohabitation not only decreases a persons appetite for marriage, it also increases the risk of divorce, should the couple ever tie the knot.

Further, a home with two unmarried partners has proven to be the most dangerous place for children in the U.S. Children who live with their mother and boyfriend are 11 times more likely to be sexually, physically, or emotionally abused than children living with their married biological parents.

In each example of social reengineering Ive noted, progressives promised good things. Sadly, the exact opposite has happened. However well-meaning the motivation, reengineering what God has designed is not only unwise, but radical and dangerous, too.

Without evidence of success to which to point, supporters of these ill-fated ventures are left with but one choice: If you cant change unfavorable outcomes, you change the minds of people as to what is considered favorable and good.

Here lies the last great frontier and the last gasp for those determined to re-engineer marriage. Those committed to this form of radicalism have systematically broken down the cultural barrier to same sex marriage by desensitizing people on the issue, stigmatizing those who oppose the movement and potentially criminalizing anyone who stands in opposition to them. The irony in our cultural discussion currently, is if you support traditional marriage, you are the one perceived by the cultural elite to be the radical.

Consider the case of a New Mexico couple who own and operate a photography business. When they kindly refused to shoot a lesbian marriage ceremony, they were summarily brought up on human rights violations by the New Mexico Human Rights Commission. They were fined for not accepting the job. While on the other hand, Christian organizations are now being singled out and suppliers are threatening to no longer supply them with critical support functions like computer technology because of their stand in opposition to same-sex marriage. Those in favor of same-sex marriage do not see the contradiction in these two examples. One group must perform the services and is fined for not doing so (in the name of human rights); the other is allowed to default on their contract because of alleged bigoted behavior on the part of the religious organization (with no regard for religious expression).

If religious liberty is lost in America, we will cease to be the nation our Founders intended us to be. Our rights will no longer be derived from God but from man, and therefore, dangerously beholden to political despots. I dont think Thomas Jefferson intended that to be the outcome for our great nation when he wrote the famous Danbury Baptist Church letter which mentioned the separation of church and state. Contrary to conventional wisdom, President Jefferson was expressing a concern that the church needed to be protected from the state, not the state from the church. It appears his fears are now being realized.

Jim Daly is president and host of "Focus on the Family."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/ ... z1NJdkc5AN


The questions I have for debate are:

1. Is what happened to the New Mexico couple proof that gay marriage will threaten christians and the church from living our faith?

2. If gay marriage is legal in the entire US would churches be forced to recognize gay couples and be forced to hire gay people to positions even if that would be against our beliefs?

[McCulloch]

When it's my unseen sky daddy saying it, I can't be blamed.

You can always blame me for following God's word. I will please God, not the world.

We don't blame Lastcallhall for following God's word. Really, everyone should follow the true words of the living god, if such a thing can be shown to exist.

What we blame Lastcallhall for is the process by which Lastcallhall has determined what constitutes God's word and how it is to be interpreted. We blame Lastcallhall for passing the buck and not taking responsibility for his own views. "It's not me, its God," he are saying in essence. We deny that assertion. Ultimately it is Lastcallhall. Because it is Lastcallhall who has, using some process which may have even involved rational thought, determined that God says that homosexual parents are a bad idea. Other people, some who believe in a god and some who don't, disagree with the conclusion which Lastcallhall attributes to his god. And unlike lastcallhall, many of them can explain why they disagree, using verifiable facts.

[Autodidact]

I will find a few more but like the first article I posted it was quickly dismissed. The people who wrote them don't have the right credentials or they do not belong to the right group. How about all the work Exodus International does? Look at what is happening to Michele Bachmann, why does it matter if "most" experts disagree with what the clinic does? Why because they do not follow the liberal line.

Your article was dismissed because it was not a scientific study. It wasn't a study at all; it was just one guy's opinion. Why would we give it any special deference? Exodus International is a crock. Why does it matter what most experts in a field think? Why bother going to school or studying anything, why even bother with science? You've already told us you don't think science works. Of course, when you use your computer to tell us that, you lose a bit of credibility.

Though you seem to fret not at taking away their rights.

They have the same rights I do

No, we don't, and if you keep spreading false propaganda about us, we'll never get them, either.

[Autodidact]

Show us that it isn't. Cite the studies that support your assertion.

Here you go and let me guess you don't like Exodus, they may not count.

http://exodusinternational.org/2009/12/ ... -adoption/

Do you know what a study is? So far you have cited zero. Is that because there aren't any that support your view? Would it help if I explained what the word "study" means in this context?

Is this your opinion, or fact?

I feel it is both

Why would your feelings be of any special interest or relevance?

Yes, I understand. In your moral view, it's perfectly o.k. to make unsupported slurs on other people. Please, continue to demonstrate how your sort of Christian behaves.

It is not unsupported at all, I have posted 2 articles now. You just don't agree.

It is unsupported by the evidence. It's not that I don't agree, it's that it's false. There is not a single study, of the many studies that have been done in the last 30 years, that supports your assertion. Not one. Why do you think that is?

I don't care about your view. I believe I've said this 3 or 4 times. I care about your actions, and how they are harming me and innocent children.

And I think by not talking to your kids about Jesus is the worst thing a parent can do.

And why would I care what you think?

Just as I thought, virtual inability to see things from the other person's point of view.

Not even close, would it surprise you to know I watch MSNBC and their talking heads more than Fox News. I love Fox News but I always want to hear what the other side is thinking and talking about. I don't agree with 99% of what they say but the arguments intrigue me.

I don't know and I don't care. I don't care what you think what your views are, what news you watch or how you manage to sleep at night. What I care about is that your lies are harming my people. I understand that in your moral universe that's acceptable behavior, and everyone here who may have been considering following Jesus as you have done understands that as well.

Would you kindly stop talking about the Bible, which has nothing whatsoever to do with our conversation? Unless you're saying that it's believing the bible that causes people to behave as you have?

Yes the Bible shapes all of my views. Before I was a born again christian I would not have cared less what anybody did because I really only cared about what made me happy.

I don't care about your views or what shapes them. What I care about is the facts, and whether you have stated them accurately, in other words, what most people call truth. You haven't, and you refuse to acknowledge that, even after having been shown that your statements are incorrect.

I didn't think you would have the humility to admit your actions and atone for them.

I won't be pushed to say I have done something wrong when I have not. I understand why you are upset but like the Bible says it is sharper than a two edged sword.

Yes, lies are dangerous weapons; be careful they don't cut both ways.

I understand you don't think lying is wrong. I understand you don't think prejudice is wrong. I understand you don't think harming entire groups of people you know nothing about is wrong. I understand all that, and so does everyone else in this thread.

So basically, when you said, "Children do better," what you meant is, "are raised consistent with my individual religious beliefs"? Do you think it's reasonable to expect other people to get that? Do you think it's honest to use words to mean something completely different from other people?

[Autodidact]

This is a good example of how science works, as opposed to a religious approach to knowledge. Science would say that lastcall has a hypothesis, which is that straight parents do a better job raising kids than gay parents. How can we figure out whether it's true? First, we come up with some way to measure how well kids turn out: Are they locked up for committing crimes? Do they graduate from high school? College? Do they breed children they can't take care of? Can they develop successful relationships? Do they participate in their community in a positive way? Are they happy? And so forth. Then we find a bunch of young adults raised by each group, and get this information on them. Then, without knowing which group is which, we see how they in fact turned out. Only after we get those results do we tabulate which ones were raised by which parents. That's to eliminate any bias the researchers might have either way. And what do we find out? They turn out much the same, with the latter group having a slight edge in a couple areas.

The religious approach is to decide what God decrees (regardless of what the holy book actually says) and therefore conclude in advance what must be the case, and decree that is reality, regardless of how the children actually turn out.

It's a whole different approach to truth for everything, not just gay families.

I submit that in general, the scientific approach works, and the religious does not. The religious approach is negligent in its approach to how to find out the truth about reality. Using the religious approach, the earth is flat and the sun travels in an arc above it, stars are windows that let the waters above down onto the earth, and the way to cure leprosy is to dip one bird in the blood of another.

[SailingCyclops]

Here you go and let me guess you don't like Exodus, they may not count.

http://exodusinternational.org/2009/12/ ... g-adoption

Unlike your methods of inquiry into truth, Exodus International won't be dismissed out of hand without examination. Let's see what the founders of the organization have to say, let's examine their history, practices, and "achievements":
Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper

Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper, two of the co- founders of Exodus, left the group to be with each other in 1979.[17] In time, they divorced their wives and participated in a commitment ceremony in 1982, exchanging rings and vows. Bussee and Cooper lived together until Cooper's death from AIDS-related illness in 1991.[18] Their story is one of the foci of the documentary One Nation Under God (1993), directed by Teodoro Maniaci and Francine Rzeznik.

In the documentary, Bussee and Cooper present themselves as "two of the original co-founders of Exodus". In an article regarding the history of Exodus International, Dr. Warren Throckmorton questioned whether Cooper should be considered a founder.[19] However, Exodus International president Alan Chambers counts both Bussee and Cooper as "founders" in a September 2006 newsletter article.[18]

As acknowledged by Exodus International in 2006, Michael Bussee "has been a longtime critic of Exodus and its leadership."[18] In June 2007, Bussee issued an apology for his involvement in promoting orientation change through Exodus. Also apologizing were Jeremy Marks, former president of Exodus International Europe, and Darlene Bogle, the founder of Paraklete Ministries, an Exodus referral agency. The apology stated in part "Some who heard our message were compelled to try to change an integral part of themselves, bringing harm to themselves and their families."[20] In April 2010, Bussee stated, "I never saw one of our members or other Exodus leaders or other Exodus members become heterosexual, so deep down I knew that it wasnt true."[21]

John Paulk

John Paulk, a well-known United States "ex-gay" public figure and Chairman of Exodus International, was removed by Exodus International Board of Directors vote on October 3, 2000, following confirmation of his "engaging in behavior which has negatively impacted the credibility of Exodus." [22]

Paulk, a self-described former "drag queen and homosexual prostitute", became active in Focus on the Family, was manager of Focus on the Family's Homosexuality and Gender Division.,[23] and was the elected Chairman of the board of Exodus International North America in August 1995 for a first three-year term. Paulk was re-elected for a second three-year term in 1998 (the incident occurred during the second three-year term).[24]

On September 19, 2000 while on a speaking tour, Paulk was identified drinking and flirting at Mr. P's, a Washington, D.C. gay bar, giving his name as "John Clint," one he had used in his days as a hustler in Ohio. A patron recognized him and contacted Wayne Besen, an employee of the Human Rights Campaign, a gay political action organization. When Besen arrived at the bar forty minutes later and confronted "John Clint", he denied that he was in fact John Paulk. Upon exiting the bar, Paulk's picture was taken as documentation that he had been in the bar. When confronted by Besen about the incident and the photographs, Paulk admitted being in the bar, but stated that he didnt know it was a gay bar and had simply stopped in for a moment to use the restroom. However, eyewitnesses reported that Paulk stayed for more than an hour, flirted with other men, and when questioned about his sexuality, said he was gay.[25][26]

Exodus International Christian Ministry Admits To Raping Children " Ex-Gay Therapy Does Not Work

Homosexuality and Heterosexuality are both normal, natural and unchangeable sexual orientations. Every accredited psychological and medical organization in American agrees that sexual orientation is fixed at birth and unchangeable.

Once again Exodus International christian ministries proves this statement out as they face criticism for covering up an ongoing sex scandal between christian counselors and children. Young adults seek treatment from Exodus ministries because they have been targeted with discrimination and violence their entire lives. Christian minister and family members tell them they can overcome the homosexual urges and turn away from the diseased and destructive sodomite lifestyle with counseling, prayer and a large donation. Sadly, rather than embracing their natural sexual orientation they are taught to hate themselves.

The abused and misguided youth are often turned over to christian counselors who specialize in pray the gay away techniques for curing the homosexual of their unnatural urges. Unfortunately for these children the counselors are often ex-gays who have gone through the treatment. The problem arises from the simple fact that therapies to convert Gays and Lesbians dont work. The children are delivered into the waiting arms of self loathing emotionally stunted christian ministers who turn to child abuse and pedophilia to fulfill their sexual needs.

Ex-Gay Ministry in Lansing Cut Loose After Charges of Bizarre Therapy[center][youtube][/youtube][/center]
In view of the above, do you still want to use these folks as the prime evidence for your statements? Please justify your sourcing Exodus Internationale's "beliefs" as a scientifically valid study.

If this is the most credible source you can come up with to support your views, one must seriously question your motives as well as your beliefs.

Bob

[lastcallhall]

It is unsupported by the evidence. It's not that I don't agree, it's that it's false. There is not a single study, of the many studies that have been done in the last 30 years, that supports your assertion. Not one. Why do you think that is?

What I gave you are rebuts to your studies, they find many of the studies to be wrong. I don't see what the problem is here, if you don't agree with the articles I have submitted its ok but I believe what they say because they back up what the Bible says and the Bible is truth.

I don't know and I don't care. I don't care what you think what your views are, what news you watch or how you manage to sleep at night.

Why would you think I have a hard time sleeping? Because I don't fall in lock step with your views and you think I am hateful? You don't know my heart and if I had hate in it God would not allow me to sleep well. The only time I have trouble sleeping is when my back goes out

What I care about is that your lies are harming my people. I understand that in your moral universe that's acceptable behavior, and everyone here who may have been considering following Jesus as you have done understands that as well.

In your view I am harming people but I am only telling them the truth. If you reject what I say why would what I say bother you? Following Jesus is a personal choice and only he can convict someone's heart to follow him.

I don't care about your views or what shapes them.

You seem to care but I am glad you don't because I really don't want you to be upset.

What I care about is the facts, and whether you have stated them accurately, in other words, what most people call truth. You haven't, and you refuse to acknowledge that, even after having been shown that your statements are incorrect.

What is false?

Yes, lies are dangerous weapons; be careful they don't cut both ways.

I know you think I am a liar because I don't have your views or agree with your studies.

I understand you don't think lying is wrong.

Really even though I believe Revelation when it says ALL liars will have their place in the lake of fire. I pray every night for God to forgive me foll all my sins known and unknown.

I understand you don't think prejudice is wrong. I understand you don't think harming entire groups of people you know nothing about is wrong. I understand all that, and so does everyone else in this thread.

I am glad you know my heart

So basically, when you said, "Children do better," what you meant is, "are raised consistent with my individual religious beliefs"?

That is true but it is also true that it is more healthy for a child to have a mother and a father so I believe both.

[lastcallhall]

This is a good example of how science works, as opposed to a religious approach to knowledge. Science would say that lastcall has a hypothesis, which is that straight parents do a better job raising kids than gay parents. How can we figure out whether it's true? First, we come up with some way to measure how well kids turn out: Are they locked up for committing crimes? Do they graduate from high school? College? Do they breed children they can't take care of? Can they develop successful relationships? Do they participate in their community in a positive way? Are they happy? And so forth. Then we find a bunch of young adults raised by each group, and get this information on them. Then, without knowing which group is which, we see how they in fact turned out. Only after we get those results do we tabulate which ones were raised by which parents. That's to eliminate any bias the researchers might have either way. And what do we find out? They turn out much the same, with the latter group having a slight edge in a couple areas.

The religious approach is to decide what God decrees (regardless of what the holy book actually says) and therefore conclude in advance what must be the case, and decree that is reality, regardless of how the children actually turn out.

It's a whole different approach to truth for everything, not just gay families.

I agree to a point that I view success and healthy differently than you do. Success is finding Jesus and following him, getting married, having kids, and teaching them to love the Lord is a wonderful thing. The world views everyone is fine, there is no sin and as long as you are happy everything is good. We just have different views of success.

[lastcallhall]

In view of the above, do you still want to use these folks as the prime evidence for your statements? Please justify your sourcing Exodus Internationale's "beliefs" as a scientifically valid study.

There are people that will leave places all the time. Because they left does not make the ministry wrong or less valuable. If anyone has been abused or raped the person should file charges and send the other person to jail for a LONG time.

If this is the most credible source you can come up with to support your views, one must seriously question your motives as well as your beliefs.

Bob

Please don't question my motives or beliefs, I don't question yours or anyone elses. I have worked with the group and they are top notch. There are bad people in all walks of life and they in no way invalidate this ministry.

[SailingCyclops]

Please don't question my motives or beliefs, I don't question yours or anyone elses. I have worked with the group and they are top notch. There are bad people in all walks of life and they in no way invalidate this ministry.

Not just anybody, but the founders themselves along with the director denounced the group as pushing ideas and methods which are untrue and unworkable. The APA along with every study on the matter has debunked these people.

... I believe what they say because they back up what the Bible says and the Bible is truth.

Here is your motive, and basis of your belief in your own words. It is not based on fact, not on studies, not on any evidence. It is instead based on a non-existent bible statement. Where in the bible does it say that two men or two women can't be as good a set of parents as a man and a woman? Where does the bible say that specifically??? If you can't produce even biblical evidence, then from where do you get such a notion?

Bob

[lastcallhall]

Not just anybody, but the founders themselves along with the director denounced the group as pushing ideas and methods which are untrue and unworkable. The APA along with every study on the matter has debunked these people.

Why are they still around then? There are many success stories.

Alan Chambers is one of the leading international speakers on gender issues and is the president of the largest evangelical organization dealing with homosexuality in the world today " Exodus International. His personal story as a gay teen and young adult who overcame unwanted homosexuality has inspired audiences around the world. He offers unique insight into how this issue personally affects individuals, families and the broader culture.

Since its inception in 1976, Exodus has grown to include more than 240 church-based member agencies and professional counselors that offer help and hope to those affected by unwanted homosexuality. Under Alans leadership, Exodus has expanded their vision to include the equipping of pastors, church leaders and youth and college workers desiring to approach the subject of homosexuality with Gods uncompromising truth and bold love.

Prior to coming to Exodus in 2001, Alan served on the pastoral team at Calvary Assembly of God, one of the largest churches in Orlando, Florida. In 2005, Charisma magazine named him among the top Christian leaders advancing the future of the American church.

Alan has addressed public forums around the world and across the United States and has debated at the University of California at Berkeley, Pepperdine University and Reformed Theological Seminary. He serves on the Board of Directors for Exodus Global Alliance " an international coalition of Exodus ministries that include Africa, Asia, Europe, Latin America and other parts of the world.

Alan is a frequent guest on media outlets around the world and has been interviewed by the BBC, The Irish Times, Los Angeles Times, TIME, Newsweek, ABCs 20/20, Good Morning America, Nightline, NBCs Today and MSNBCs Buchanan & Press. His writing has appeared in The Boston Globe, The Orlando Sentinel and The Washington Times. He is the author of Gods Grace & The Homosexual Next Door: Reaching the Heart of the Gay Men & Women in Your World and the recent, Leaving Homosexuality: A Practical Guide for Men and Women Looking for a Way Out.

There are more stories

But if all you are looking for is a high ranking person to denounce something and then it makes it bad lets look at Jane Roe in Roe vs Wade.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norma_McCorvey

She is now against abortion so I guess you should be too? It was her lawsuit!

Here is your motive, and basis of your belief in your own words. It is not based on fact, not on studies, not on any evidence. It is instead based on a non-existent bible statement. Where in the bible does it say that two men or two women can't be as good a set of parents as a man and a woman? Where does the bible say that specifically??? If you can't produce even biblical evidence, then from where do you get such a notion?

Bob

Here are my verses.

Genesis 2:24
New King James Version (NKJV)


24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.


Ephesians 5:31
New King James Version (NKJV)

31 For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.[a]

there verses tell me that God views marriage between a man and a woman.

Romans 1:24-32
New King James Version (NKJV)

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[a] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
Leviticus 20:13
New King James Version (NKJV)

13 If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.

There verses tell me the homosexual lifestyle is sin and if two people are living in sin it can't be a good environment for the child.