The Gay agenda

[lastcallhall]

This is an article from Jim Daly on Foxnews and it looks like what a few of us conservative christians believe is the gay agenda moving forward to get marriage passed.

I am, naturally, personally opposed to the legalization of same-sex marriage for the simple but profound reason that it violates and contradicts the sacred text of the Bible, which I believe to be true and inspired. But on what basis should I expect people who dont believe as I do to likewise oppose same-sex marriage?

On the basis of logic, reason, common sense and the fact that preservation of traditional marriage is in the best interest of the common good, as evidenced by any number of factors, including reams of social science data and thousands of years of history.

Any discussion on the definition of marriage incites strong emotional reaction. And those of us within the orthodox Christian community understand that many in the culture see this issue very differently, and hold to very passionate views on the subject. We understand that on this matter, in some circles, that never the twain shall meet. Nevertheless, this difference of opinion does not preclude us the privilege of championing a principle we hold dear, especially since its our Christian faith that motivates us to support and defend what we believe to be Gods blueprint for human relationship. In the last half-century, progressives have exercised their own rights of cultural engagement, aggressively championing sweeping cultural changes on numerous levels. Although we may disagree with them, we certainly dont begrudge them the right to engage the process. But in this pursuit to redefine marriage, wouldnt it make sense to consider the outcomes of prior social reengineering efforts?

In the late 1960s, no-fault divorce promised to simplify, streamline and decrease the contentiousness surrounding marital breakup. Instead, it only encouraged struggling spouses to throw in the towel. Fathers abandoned their families in droves. Poverty levels skyrocketed. Prison populations increased at dramatic levels, a consequence of kids now growing up without a father in the home.

A few years later, in 1973, the Supreme Court legalized abortion in all 50 states. Supporters heralded a new era of responsibility, where every child would be a wanted child. Tragically, over 48 million babies have now been aborted and the beauty of life has been cheapened as a result, while child abuse has skyrocketed.

The expansion of welfare promised to alleviate human suffering. While in some ways noble in intent, it disincentivized work, undermined the family unit and created a perpetual cycle of dependency and poverty. Fathers were no longer needed to be an integral part of the family.

Cohabitation is yet another experiment which promised to liberate couples from the burden of marriage. The number of couples living together outside of marriage has increased ten-fold between 1960 and 2000. Over 12 million unmarried partners now live together in the United States. The result? Cohabitation not only decreases a persons appetite for marriage, it also increases the risk of divorce, should the couple ever tie the knot.

Further, a home with two unmarried partners has proven to be the most dangerous place for children in the U.S. Children who live with their mother and boyfriend are 11 times more likely to be sexually, physically, or emotionally abused than children living with their married biological parents.

In each example of social reengineering Ive noted, progressives promised good things. Sadly, the exact opposite has happened. However well-meaning the motivation, reengineering what God has designed is not only unwise, but radical and dangerous, too.

Without evidence of success to which to point, supporters of these ill-fated ventures are left with but one choice: If you cant change unfavorable outcomes, you change the minds of people as to what is considered favorable and good.

Here lies the last great frontier and the last gasp for those determined to re-engineer marriage. Those committed to this form of radicalism have systematically broken down the cultural barrier to same sex marriage by desensitizing people on the issue, stigmatizing those who oppose the movement and potentially criminalizing anyone who stands in opposition to them. The irony in our cultural discussion currently, is if you support traditional marriage, you are the one perceived by the cultural elite to be the radical.

Consider the case of a New Mexico couple who own and operate a photography business. When they kindly refused to shoot a lesbian marriage ceremony, they were summarily brought up on human rights violations by the New Mexico Human Rights Commission. They were fined for not accepting the job. While on the other hand, Christian organizations are now being singled out and suppliers are threatening to no longer supply them with critical support functions like computer technology because of their stand in opposition to same-sex marriage. Those in favor of same-sex marriage do not see the contradiction in these two examples. One group must perform the services and is fined for not doing so (in the name of human rights); the other is allowed to default on their contract because of alleged bigoted behavior on the part of the religious organization (with no regard for religious expression).

If religious liberty is lost in America, we will cease to be the nation our Founders intended us to be. Our rights will no longer be derived from God but from man, and therefore, dangerously beholden to political despots. I dont think Thomas Jefferson intended that to be the outcome for our great nation when he wrote the famous Danbury Baptist Church letter which mentioned the separation of church and state. Contrary to conventional wisdom, President Jefferson was expressing a concern that the church needed to be protected from the state, not the state from the church. It appears his fears are now being realized.

Jim Daly is president and host of "Focus on the Family."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/05/ ... z1NJdkc5AN


The questions I have for debate are:

1. Is what happened to the New Mexico couple proof that gay marriage will threaten christians and the church from living our faith?

2. If gay marriage is legal in the entire US would churches be forced to recognize gay couples and be forced to hire gay people to positions even if that would be against our beliefs?

[Deadclown]

Welcome to the forums GiddyUp! I think you hit the nail squarely on the head. I'd also add that in a lot of cases it comes from personal dislike of the idea of homosexuality and indoctrination by religious organizations who choose to put the emphasis on homosexuality and not divorce. Homosexuality is a lot more alien to the heterosexual mindset than divorce and many who rage against it likely find the behavior to be 'disgusting' on a personal level (or as has been previously suggested, the opposite). Divorce on the other hand is something that they can relate to on a personal level and doesn't cause similar psychological reactions.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... y-behavior

...people who have a weaker stomach in general are more prone to find expressions of male-male sexual behavior morally wrong. However, because these implicit (often unconscious) moral judgments are often in conflict with social prescriptions of fairness and equality for gay couples, such individuals are usually completely unaware of their own prejudiced attitudes.
...
The specific link between disgust sensitivity and intuitive attitudes toward gays, however, isnt entirely understood at present. That said, Inbar and his colleagues offer a perfectly reasonable evolutionary interpretation:

Individuals belonging to unfamiliar groups, especially those who engaged in unusual practices regarding food, cleanliness and sex, posed a higher risk of carrying novel (and therefore particularly dangerous) infectious agents. Perceiving such individuals would thus activate the behavioral immune system and cause avoidance behavior and the accompanying emotion of disgust. This hypervigilance may be especially acute in those individuals who are especially sensitive to disgust, the emotion that drives the behavioral avoidance system. Because gay people almost by definition engage in unusual sexual behavior, one would expect more negative reactions to this outgroup on the part of those who are particularly disgust sensitive.

We fear things that are new and strange, or things that we do not understand. It makes us uncomfortable. Some people instead of taking strides to try to understand, are more than happy to just vilify those that are different from themselves.

The upside is even people who have natural disinclination to novel stimuli can rise above such petty instinctual feelings through the wonders of being consciously aware of it (and not wanting to be a bigot). Likewise, exposure to the stimuli (being around homosexual behavior) can help a person who desires to get over such feelings, to get over them.

[GiddyUp]

Thank you for the warm welcome!

Personal prejudices definately seem to play a huge role in the Christian "obsession" of homosexuality, even though Christ barely mentioned homosexuality, and he had much harsher things to say about the rich, but Christians don't seem to share Jesus' views about that at all. They say even though Jesus said the rich won't get to Heaven, it's ok to be rich as long as you don't obsess about money. Why not apply this to homosexuality then? Jesus said that even having a lustful thought is tantamount to adultery, having a hateful thought is same as murder from which is made the case that all sins are equally grave. But somehow homosexuality tops it all. How can it be anything besides being driven by prejudice. If it weren't, Christians would be much more vocal about Western materialist lifestyle, military spending, neglect of the destitute, than about love between two men or women.

And I apologise for using a blanket 'Christian'. Altough Christians generally don't follow Jesus' teachings to the letter, and they have good, practical reasons for doing so, but sometimes the hypocrisy is just too much to bear. Especially when someone cites Jesus saying that many people will falsely claim to be Christians, a passage which taken in full context supports the position that there have been precious few Christians in the religion's existance and propably none of them American, certainly none today.

[GiddyUp]

And still I'm sorry for applying a blanket for all Christians as if they are worse than the rest of us, they aren't. They are good people as people everywhere generally are. But still, My reading of the Bible says that, that is not enough. And I wouldn't want to hold Christians to Jesus' standard, unless they are citing him as a standard.

How can it be that there are churches that will marry gay couples, and there are churches that would never do so? How is it that there are Christians who will make wovs(sic?) of poverty and Christians who gather riches as if they are a blessing from God?

Christians have, will, do things contrary to the actual teachings of Jesus, not because it's hard, but because Jesus' teachings were insane for a people that is involved in running a society. Christians live for this world while keeping hopes up for the next.

[riverslivnwtr]

And still I'm sorry for applying a blanket for all Christians as if they are worse than the rest of us, they aren't. They are good people as people everywhere generally are. But still, My reading of the Bible says that, that is not enough. And I wouldn't want to hold Christians to Jesus' standard, unless they are citing him as a standard.

How can it be that there are churches that will marry gay couples, and there are churches that would never do so? How is it that there are Christians who will make wovs(sic?) of poverty and Christians who gather riches as if they are a blessing from God?

Christians have, will, do things contrary to the actual teachings of Jesus, not because it's hard, but because Jesus' teachings were insane for a people that is involved in running a society. Christians live for this world while keeping hopes up for the next.

I believe that Christians should attend to the things of Christ and the State should attend to it's matters...It is the State that enforces power in marriages..I believe that the churches have the right to deny gay marriages and should.. But Christians should get out of other people's lives on the state level...I do not believe that gay marriages are acceptable to God whether by Church or State...but that's from my position in life and not that of another person who eyes the same sex.

[Clownboat]

And still I'm sorry for applying a blanket for all Christians as if they are worse than the rest of us, they aren't. They are good people as people everywhere generally are. But still, My reading of the Bible says that, that is not enough. And I wouldn't want to hold Christians to Jesus' standard, unless they are citing him as a standard.

How can it be that there are churches that will marry gay couples, and there are churches that would never do so? How is it that there are Christians who will make wovs(sic?) of poverty and Christians who gather riches as if they are a blessing from God?

Christians have, will, do things contrary to the actual teachings of Jesus, not because it's hard, but because Jesus' teachings were insane for a people that is involved in running a society. Christians live for this world while keeping hopes up for the next.

I believe that Christians should attend to the things of Christ and the State should attend to it's matters...It is the State that enforces power in marriages..I believe that the churches have the right to deny gay marriages and should.. But Christians should get out of other people's lives on the state level...I do not believe that gay marriages are acceptable to God whether by Church or State...but that's from my position in life and not that of another person who eyes the same sex.

Today, could you choose to be aroused by the same sex, while at the same time choosing to not be aroused by the opposite sex?

(Unless I have missed something, and you choose to correct me).
If yes, then you are either gay already, or being gay is a choice (at least for you, but that would be "some" evidence of it being a choice I suppose).

If no, then people do not have a choice to be gay, and they are that way naturally, or a creator (if there is one) created them that way.

Will/can you answer honestly?

[riverslivnwtr]

And still I'm sorry for applying a blanket for all Christians as if they are worse than the rest of us, they aren't. They are good people as people everywhere generally are. But still, My reading of the Bible says that, that is not enough. And I wouldn't want to hold Christians to Jesus' standard, unless they are citing him as a standard.

How can it be that there are churches that will marry gay couples, and there are churches that would never do so? How is it that there are Christians who will make wovs(sic?) of poverty and Christians who gather riches as if they are a blessing from God?

Christians have, will, do things contrary to the actual teachings of Jesus, not because it's hard, but because Jesus' teachings were insane for a people that is involved in running a society. Christians live for this world while keeping hopes up for the next.

I believe that Christians should attend to the things of Christ and the State should attend to it's matters...It is the State that enforces power in marriages..I believe that the churches have the right to deny gay marriages and should.. But Christians should get out of other people's lives on the state level...I do not believe that gay marriages are acceptable to God whether by Church or State...but that's from my position in life and not that of another person who eyes the same sex.

Today, could you choose to be aroused by the same sex, while at the same time choosing to not be aroused by the opposite sex?

(Unless I have missed something, and you choose to correct me).
If yes, then you are either gay already, or being gay is a choice (at least for you, but that would be "some" evidence of it being a choice I suppose).

If no, then people do not have a choice to be gay, and they are that way naturally, or a creator (if there is one) created them that way.

Will/can you answer honestly?

I have chosen and always lusted for the opposite sex.. I am only interested in the proper position Christians should take in this issue...I'm tired of hearing about it like abortion as well..We have too much to do...we are neglecting our children watching football and too much tv and drinking far too much alcohol ...

I don't care whether a man or woman chooses for sexual pleasure..only that Christians have the right agenda..to mind his own manner of living in the right way which is being led by the Spirit of truth.. truth since you mentioned it is following Christ who was not in the business of other people..

[Clownboat]

And still I'm sorry for applying a blanket for all Christians as if they are worse than the rest of us, they aren't. They are good people as people everywhere generally are. But still, My reading of the Bible says that, that is not enough. And I wouldn't want to hold Christians to Jesus' standard, unless they are citing him as a standard.

How can it be that there are churches that will marry gay couples, and there are churches that would never do so? How is it that there are Christians who will make wovs(sic?) of poverty and Christians who gather riches as if they are a blessing from God?

Christians have, will, do things contrary to the actual teachings of Jesus, not because it's hard, but because Jesus' teachings were insane for a people that is involved in running a society. Christians live for this world while keeping hopes up for the next.

I believe that Christians should attend to the things of Christ and the State should attend to it's matters...It is the State that enforces power in marriages..I believe that the churches have the right to deny gay marriages and should.. But Christians should get out of other people's lives on the state level...I do not believe that gay marriages are acceptable to God whether by Church or State...but that's from my position in life and not that of another person who eyes the same sex.

Today, could you choose to be aroused by the same sex, while at the same time choosing to not be aroused by the opposite sex?

(Unless I have missed something, and you choose to correct me).
If yes, then you are either gay already, or being gay is a choice (at least for you, but that would be "some" evidence of it being a choice I suppose).

If no, then people do not have a choice to be gay, and they are that way naturally, or a creator (if there is one) created them that way.

Will/can you answer honestly?

I have chosen and always lusted for the opposite sex.. I am only interested in the proper position Christians should take in this issue...I'm tired of hearing about it like abortion as well..We have too much to do...we are neglecting our children watching football and too much tv and drinking far too much alcohol ...

I don't care whether a man or woman chooses for sexual pleasure..only that Christians have the right agenda..to mind his own manner of living in the right way which is being led by the Spirit of truth.. truth since you mentioned it is following Christ who was not in the business of other people..

You have just supplied evidence suggesting that being gay is not a choice.

So, if being gay is not a choice and you believe a God created all of us, then if he does not like homosexuality, why does he make so many homosexuals?

I am glad though, that you don't care what people choose for their sexual pleasures.

[riverslivnwtr]

And still I'm sorry for applying a blanket for all Christians as if they are worse than the rest of us, they aren't. They are good people as people everywhere generally are. But still, My reading of the Bible says that, that is not enough. And I wouldn't want to hold Christians to Jesus' standard, unless they are citing him as a standard.

How can it be that there are churches that will marry gay couples, and there are churches that would never do so? How is it that there are Christians who will make wovs(sic?) of poverty and Christians who gather riches as if they are a blessing from God?

Christians have, will, do things contrary to the actual teachings of Jesus, not because it's hard, but because Jesus' teachings were insane for a people that is involved in running a society. Christians live for this world while keeping hopes up for the next.

I believe that Christians should attend to the things of Christ and the State should attend to it's matters...It is the State that enforces power in marriages..I believe that the churches have the right to deny gay marriages and should.. But Christians should get out of other people's lives on the state level...I do not believe that gay marriages are acceptable to God whether by Church or State...but that's from my position in life and not that of another person who eyes the same sex.

Today, could you choose to be aroused by the same sex, while at the same time choosing to not be aroused by the opposite sex?

(Unless I have missed something, and you choose to correct me).
If yes, then you are either gay already, or being gay is a choice (at least for you, but that would be "some" evidence of it being a choice I suppose).

If no, then people do not have a choice to be gay, and they are that way naturally, or a creator (if there is one) created them that way.

Will/can you answer honestly?

I have chosen and always lusted for the opposite sex.. I am only interested in the proper position Christians should take in this issue...I'm tired of hearing about it like abortion as well..We have too much to do...we are neglecting our children watching football and too much tv and drinking far too much alcohol ...

I don't care whether a man or woman chooses for sexual pleasure..only that Christians have the right agenda..to mind his own manner of living in the right way which is being led by the Spirit of truth.. truth since you mentioned it is following Christ who was not in the business of other people..

You have just supplied evidence suggesting that being gay is not a choice.

So, if being gay is not a choice and you believe a God created all of us, then if he does not like homosexuality, why does he make so many homosexuals?

I am glad though, that you don't care what people choose for their sexual pleasures.

Adam in his transgression made homosexuality; just like murder and every sin under the sun....
but this was all to reveal the glory of God before we meet him..we are formed from the dust of the ground but God is spirit, spiritual..to survive our initial encounter with him we must conform to the image of his son.. or else :2gun:

[Clownboat]

And still I'm sorry for applying a blanket for all Christians as if they are worse than the rest of us, they aren't. They are good people as people everywhere generally are. But still, My reading of the Bible says that, that is not enough. And I wouldn't want to hold Christians to Jesus' standard, unless they are citing him as a standard.

How can it be that there are churches that will marry gay couples, and there are churches that would never do so? How is it that there are Christians who will make wovs(sic?) of poverty and Christians who gather riches as if they are a blessing from God?

Christians have, will, do things contrary to the actual teachings of Jesus, not because it's hard, but because Jesus' teachings were insane for a people that is involved in running a society. Christians live for this world while keeping hopes up for the next.

I believe that Christians should attend to the things of Christ and the State should attend to it's matters...It is the State that enforces power in marriages..I believe that the churches have the right to deny gay marriages and should.. But Christians should get out of other people's lives on the state level...I do not believe that gay marriages are acceptable to God whether by Church or State...but that's from my position in life and not that of another person who eyes the same sex.

Today, could you choose to be aroused by the same sex, while at the same time choosing to not be aroused by the opposite sex?

(Unless I have missed something, and you choose to correct me).
If yes, then you are either gay already, or being gay is a choice (at least for you, but that would be "some" evidence of it being a choice I suppose).

If no, then people do not have a choice to be gay, and they are that way naturally, or a creator (if there is one) created them that way.

Will/can you answer honestly?

I have chosen and always lusted for the opposite sex.. I am only interested in the proper position Christians should take in this issue...I'm tired of hearing about it like abortion as well..We have too much to do...we are neglecting our children watching football and too much tv and drinking far too much alcohol ...

I don't care whether a man or woman chooses for sexual pleasure..only that Christians have the right agenda..to mind his own manner of living in the right way which is being led by the Spirit of truth.. truth since you mentioned it is following Christ who was not in the business of other people..

You have just supplied evidence suggesting that being gay is not a choice.

So, if being gay is not a choice and you believe a God created all of us, then if he does not like homosexuality, why does he make so many homosexuals?

I am glad though, that you don't care what people choose for their sexual pleasures.

Adam in his transgression made homosexuality; just like murder and every sin under the sun....
but this was all to reveal the glory of God before we meet him..we are formed from the dust of the ground but God is spirit, spiritual..to survive our initial encounter with him we must conform to the image of his son.. or else :2gun:

Take 2:
So, if being gay is not a choice and you believe a God created all of us, then if he does not like homosexuality, why does he make so many homosexuals?

If you want to blame Adam, does that mean you think Adam is our creator? If so, where does a God come in? Or do you think Adam is actually god. Please answer the question above and clarify this if you are able.

[riverslivnwtr]

And still I'm sorry for applying a blanket for all Christians as if they are worse than the rest of us, they aren't. They are good people as people everywhere generally are. But still, My reading of the Bible says that, that is not enough. And I wouldn't want to hold Christians to Jesus' standard, unless they are citing him as a standard.

How can it be that there are churches that will marry gay couples, and there are churches that would never do so? How is it that there are Christians who will make wovs(sic?) of poverty and Christians who gather riches as if they are a blessing from God?

Christians have, will, do things contrary to the actual teachings of Jesus, not because it's hard, but because Jesus' teachings were insane for a people that is involved in running a society. Christians live for this world while keeping hopes up for the next.

I believe that Christians should attend to the things of Christ and the State should attend to it's matters...It is the State that enforces power in marriages..I believe that the churches have the right to deny gay marriages and should.. But Christians should get out of other people's lives on the state level...I do not believe that gay marriages are acceptable to God whether by Church or State...but that's from my position in life and not that of another person who eyes the same sex.

Today, could you choose to be aroused by the same sex, while at the same time choosing to not be aroused by the opposite sex?

(Unless I have missed something, and you choose to correct me).
If yes, then you are either gay already, or being gay is a choice (at least for you, but that would be "some" evidence of it being a choice I suppose).

If no, then people do not have a choice to be gay, and they are that way naturally, or a creator (if there is one) created them that way.

Will/can you answer honestly?

I have chosen and always lusted for the opposite sex.. I am only interested in the proper position Christians should take in this issue...I'm tired of hearing about it like abortion as well..We have too much to do...we are neglecting our children watching football and too much tv and drinking far too much alcohol ...

I don't care whether a man or woman chooses for sexual pleasure..only that Christians have the right agenda..to mind his own manner of living in the right way which is being led by the Spirit of truth.. truth since you mentioned it is following Christ who was not in the business of other people..

You have just supplied evidence suggesting that being gay is not a choice.

So, if being gay is not a choice and you believe a God created all of us, then if he does not like homosexuality, why does he make so many homosexuals?

I am glad though, that you don't care what people choose for their sexual pleasures.

Adam in his transgression made homosexuality; just like murder and every sin under the sun....
but this was all to reveal the glory of God before we meet him..we are formed from the dust of the ground but God is spirit, spiritual..to survive our initial encounter with him we must conform to the image of his son.. or else :2gun:

Take 2:
So, if being gay is not a choice and you believe a God created all of us, then if he does not like homosexuality, why does he make so many homosexuals?

If you want to blame Adam, does that mean you think Adam is our creator? If so, where does a God come in? Or do you think Adam is actually god. Please answer the question above and clarify this if you are able.

It is Paul that said that Satan is the god of this world..with that being true, it would mean that when Adam was in the garden of Eden, that Satan robbed him of his right of ownership of the earth...because God had given that to man.
so Adam was a god..even as I am now..but that's another story ..the point is Adam's fallen nature came upon all mankind, and every person became subject to the nature and character of Satan, whose power and hold is still upon mankind through the nature of our flesh; which is at enmity with God..which is why Jesus came and demanded that we crucify our own flesh (it's affections and lusts) to be re-generated by the power of the holy Spirit...