The Problem with the Problem of Evil

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williamryan
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The Problem with the Problem of Evil

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Post by williamryan »

I'm new to this site. I've surfed around a bit on this topic, and I've constantly run into incantations of the problem of evil. I've seen Juliod, among others, use it over and over. I hope this thread will isolate the real issues of contention and shed some light on this often misused and abused argument. I have learned much from William Lane Craig and Alvin Plantinga's writings on this matter, and much of what I say is from their writings.

There are two basic versions of the problem of evil: deductive and probalistic (aka inductive). The propontent of the deductive problem of evil attempts to show that the existence of Deductive looks like this:

1. If a God exists who is omnipotent (all powerful) and omnibenevolent (all loving),
2. and evil exists,
3. then God cannot be omnipotent or omnibenevolent.

This version of the argument has been almost completely abandoned by professional philosophers today. It lives on in its popular level form and is made immortal by producing this corpse of an argument between non-philosopher friends. Alvin Plantinga (a preeminent Christian philosopher at Notre Dame and past president of the Amer. Philosophical Assoc., which is the main association of professional philosophers) showed that this version of the problem of evil is logically untenable.

Alvin Plantinga presented a "defense" as opposed to a theodicy. A theodicy is an effort to explain why God would allow evil to exist. A defense, however, merely seeks to show that the atheist has failed to carry their case that evil is incompatible with God's existence. In other words, a sucessful defense with show that the atheist has failed to show that evil is logically incompatible with God's existence, while leaving us in the dark as to why God allows evil.

The deductive argument was destroyed because, in short, the atheist has assumed an overwhelming burden. Premises (1) and (2), above, are at not explicitly, logically inconsistent. An explicit, logically inconsistent statement would be that "God is blue, but God is not blue."

If the atheist thinks that premises (1) and (2) are implicitly inconsistent, then he or she must be assuming some hidden premise(s) that would make the inconsistency explicit. Those premises seem to be these:

(3) If God is omnipotent, then God can create any world that God desires.
(4) If God is omnibenevolent, then God prefers a world without evil over a world with evil.

Hidden premise (3) then is the view that if God is omnipotent, he could create a world that were all humans freely choose to do the right thing. This world would then be free of all moral evil: no lying, no cheating, no murder etc. So, because we can conceive of a world in which everyone freely chooses every time to do the right thing, and God is all-powerful, then God must be able to create it.

This links with hidden premise (4) because if God was powerful enough to create this type of world, then he certaintly would because he is all-loving. In other words, if God had the choice between creating a flawed, evil world like this one and creating one w/o any evil, then God would most certainly chose the latter. Otherwise, God would be evil to prefer that people experience pain and suffering when God could have given them happiness and prosperity.

In David Hume's Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion, he summarized this last point when he asked: "Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?"

Plantinga and others object to hidden premise (3) with what he calls the free will defense. It goes like this: if it is possible that humans have complete freedom to make choices, then (3) and (4) are not necessarily true. If humans have freedom to make choices, then it is not necessarily true that God could have created another world in which no evil exists but people have complete freedom of choice. This is because God's omnipotence doesn't imply that God can do logical impossibilities like create a round triangle or make a married bachelor, or make someone freely chose to do something.

All God can really do is create a world in which a person may freely chose to act and then allow that person to make the free choice. This implies that there are possible worlds that are not feasible for God to create. Just like its not "feasible" for God to create a round triangle or a married bachelor. This does not impinge on God's omnipotence though, because God cannot be impinged for not being able to do a logical impossibility. Another example how how non-sensical this is, is for someone to say that God is not all-powerful because he cannot exist and non exist at the same time.

So, suppose that in every feasible world that God could create, free creatures sometimes choice evil. Here it is us, the creature, not God that is responsible for evil and God can do nothing to prevent their ability to choose the evil, apart from refusing to create such a world at all. Therefore it is at least possible that feasible world that God could create that contains free human beings is a world that has evil in it.

I'm about to say something that will seem crazy and you might be tempted to label be a total fundamentalist and crazy, but please keep reading past the next few sentences. As for natural evils (i.e. earthquakes, tornadoes, etc.) it is possible that these evils could result from demonic activity. Demons could have freedom just like humans and it is possible that God could not preclude natural evil w/o removing demons' free will. You might be thinking, "That is ridiculous!" and you might even think that it is a spurious, frivolous argument. But only let this thought last a few moments lest you confuse the deductive argument with the probabilistic arguments. I admit, ascribing all evil to demonic beings is improbable, but that is completely irrevelant to the deductive version of this argument. Probability only enters the calculus in the probalistic argument. All I must do here is show that such an explanation (both for the moral evil and natural evil) is merely possible.

In summary, hidden premise (3), that an omnipotent God can create any world he desires, is plainly not necessarily true. Therefore, the atheist's argument on this ground alone fails, which causes the whole argument to fail. But we can go further, what about hidden premise (4).

What about (4), the hidden premise that if God is all-loving then he would prefer a world w/o evil over a world with evil. Again, this is not necessarily true. By analogy, we allow pain and suffering to exist in a person's life to bring about some greater good. Every parent knows this. There comes a time when parents cannot protect their child from every mishap, or when the parent must discipline the child so the child matures. Similarly, God could permit suffering in our lives to build us or test us or others and to achieve some greater good. Therefore, premise (4) is also not necessarily true. And again the argument fails, this time on totally separate grounds. Notice that the atheist must show that both (3) and (4) are true, while the theist merely need show one is false.

If I may be permitted to read some of your minds, at this point you might be thinking, "Even if there is no inconsistency between God and evil, surely the existence of God is incompatible with the amount and kinds of evils that actually exist." What good, you might ask, could possibly come from a pregnant mother in the wrong part of town that is struck down by a stray bullet fired from a gang member's 9mm?

This as its own hidden premise, that God cannot have morally sufficient reasons to allow the amount and kinds of evil that exist. But again, this is not necessarily true, and all I must show is that it is possible that God has a morally sufficient reason. As terrible as some things about the world are, people generally agree that life is worth living, from which we could surmise that there is much more good that evil in the world, regardless of the amount and kind of evil actually present. As for the kinds of evil, it is possible that God has some overriding reasons to permit the kinds of evil that occur.

Again, you might think that that seems pretty unlikely. But this would confuse the deductive problem with the probabilistic problem again. To refute the deductive version, the theist doesn't have to suggest a likely solution--all he or she must do is suggest a possible solution.

In summary, the atheist assumes at least two hidden premises in the deductive version of this argument. He or she must prove both of those premises for this version to be true. I have shown that both of those hidden premises can be indenpendently refuted.

Further, because it is the atheist who claims to note a contradicition w/in the theist's truth claims, it is the atheist that bears the burden of proof to show that there is no possible world in which premises (1) and (2) are true. That is an incredibly heavy burden, which the atheist ultimately cannot shoulder. The deductive version of the problem of evil is impotent.


Probabilistic Version

After the deductive argument was destroyed, most who want to use the problem of evil (POE) to show that God cannot be all loving or all powerful moved to the probabilistic argument. The inductive version admits that it is possible for the traditional God of Christianity and evil to coexist, but it is highly improbable for them to coexist. The argument looks like this:

1. If a god exists who is all loving and all powerful,
2. yet evil exists,
3. then it is highly improbable or unlikely that a god exists who is all loving or all powerful.

Let me make a few observations. Notice that even if the Christian granted this argument, this argument does not show that God does not exist. It is, however, a step along that path. At most, this argument can claim that the type of God posited by traditional Christianity does not exist. Further, this argument cannot show that God is not all loving and not all powerful; it can only show that one of this is incorrect. But this is all only the case if we grant this argument, and there are powerful reasons not to grant it.[/u]

Given that this post is way too long already, I'll be brief here, and will flesh out my comments on this version as other posts come in (if anybody actually gets this far into the novel :)

(1) Given the full scope of the evidence for God's existence, it is far more likely than not that God exists.

(2) Because of our finite nature, we are not in a good position to asses with a sufficient confidence that God has no morally sufficient reasons for permitting the evils that occur.

(3) Christianity entails doctrines that increase the probability that God and evil coexist

I look forward to your comments.

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Melis
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Post #61

Post by Melis »

harvey1 wrote:Actually, the laws of physics do allow creation from nothing. In fact, quantum theory would not work without the creation and annihilation of particles all around us. Many quantum cosmologists (e.g., Vilenkin) are proposing that the universe came to exist out of nothing.
1. Really? Very interesting. Goodbye Einstein, Planck, Heisenberg, Hawking, etc., etc., and all the modern physics. You must be talking about the vacuum quantum fluctuations, which doesn't violate the physical laws (you can do a little research on this).

2. What sense does it make for omnipotent god to create laws of physics which he would be constrained by? He could have created them any way he wished.

3. If god is constrained by the laws of physics, he MUST BE physical himself, since the word "physics" pertain to something physical, i.e. must be in the realm of either matter or energy. The science of physics doesn't deal with ghosts, demons, etc.

4. All above is valid if we talk about our ordinary understanding of the "laws of physics". If you refer to some other "laws of physics" then we should call them some other name, for example "laws of physics X", so we could distinguish them.
I could say that I have my own laws, according to which a man could be turned into frog - but I would assume that would not be welcomed by the scientists.

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Melis
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Post #62

Post by Melis »

otseng wrote:Whew. I'm glad an atheist can agree here that this is a straw man argument. Again juliod, it seems like you're the only here that is defining omnipotent as being able to do what is illogical. And I think we can all agree that such a god does not exist.
I'm the second one.

Is talking donkey logical? Or man walking on the water? Or...
"Omnipotence to a certain degree" is not omnipotence by definition -"omni" means everything, "potence" means ability (I know everybody knows, but just in case).

Every and each one of us, and animals, are omnipotent to a certain degree, so we are all candidates for being a god.

Also, logical and impossible as we understand it, obviously doesn't have to apply to god, as he might have his own logic.

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Post #63

Post by Scrotum »

Melis wrote:
otseng wrote:Whew. I'm glad an atheist can agree here that this is a straw man argument. Again juliod, it seems like you're the only here that is defining omnipotent as being able to do what is illogical. And I think we can all agree that such a god does not exist.
I'm the second one.

Is talking donkey logical? Or man walking on the water? Or...
"Omnipotence to a certain degree" is not omnipotence by definition -"omni" means everything, "potence" means ability (I know everybody knows, but just in case).

Every and each one of us, and animals, are omnipotent to a certain degree, so we are all candidates for being a god.

Also, logical and impossible as we understand it, obviously doesn't have to apply to god, as he might have his own logic.
Im sorry Otsend, but i must agree, this is really no debate, Omnipotent MEANS being able to do ANYTHING, even aLogical things, else its/he/her is not omnipotent.

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Post #64

Post by Lotan »

williamryan wrote:Lotan, for purposes of this thread, we're assuming that evil and good are not a subjective constructs of the human mind.
Then this thread is in the wrong forum. The "Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma" forum was created specifically for this sort of nonsense.

MODERATORS - Can we move this thread to TDD since, according to williamryan, reality is inadmissable as evidence?

Also, Mr. Ryan, should you decide to paraphrase me in the future, please don't. I wrote...
tselem wrote:If there is no such thing as evil, then the "problem of evil" ceases to exist.
Lotan wrote:It never existed in the first place. It is a human conception, like the idea of evil itself.
By "It" I was clearly referring to the "problem of evil" that tselem mentioned, not "(evil)" as in your edited version of my quote.
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto His people. Exodus 32:14

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Post #65

Post by harvey1 »

juliod wrote:But how would you know he is god, rather than just a very powerful being? It seems to me that once you demote god from being deep-omnipotent then you have the problem of proving that he is god. A being with infinite power would definitely be god, but a being with limitations (of whatever nature) could be some lesser being.
Well, the three letter word "God" is just to signify the being who brought all of creation into existence and has a reason for doing so. We could use a different word, but I see no reason to do so since, as I've shown, the early Christians didn't see God as omnipotent as in can do all illogical things, or even can do anything logically possible. This "God" came about later as people had an image of a God that was a se (of itself) to the universe. This image is wrong, and the early Christian view is correct. So, I wish to go back to the concept of how Christians conceived of God.

As to answering your question, siince God is intrinsic to the Universe, and everything that happens is ultimately "beautiful," this gives us good reason to believe that this being is God.
People say of the last day, that God shall give judgment. This is true. But it is not true as people imagine. Every man pronounces his own sentence; as he shows himself here in his essence, so will he remain everlastingly -- Meister Eckhart

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Post #66

Post by McCulloch »

Melis wrote:Is talking donkey logical?
No.
Melis wrote:Or man walking on the water? Or...
No. These things are highly improbable but you cannot show them to be impossible through logic alone. You must invoke the laws of physics. An omnipotent being can overrule physics but not logic. An omnipotent being can do things which are impossible for us to do due to a physical restriction. But it could not do that which cannot be done.
Melis wrote:"Omnipotence to a certain degree" is not omnipotence by definition -"omni" means everything, "potence" means ability (I know everybody knows, but just in case).
So, does omnipresence mean that he is in places which do not and can not exist?
Melis wrote:Every and each one of us, and animals, are omnipotent to a certain degree, so we are all candidates for being a god.
No. We all have limitations far beyond the logical ones.
Melis wrote:Also, logical and impossible as we understand it, obviously doesn't have to apply to god, as he might have his own logic.
No. Logic is logic.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Melis
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Post #67

Post by Melis »

McCulloch wrote:
Melis wrote:Is talking donkey logical?
No.
Melis wrote:Or man walking on the water? Or...
No. These things are highly improbable but you cannot show them to be impossible through logic alone. You must invoke the laws of physics. An omnipotent being can overrule physics but not logic. An omnipotent being can do things which are impossible for us to do due to a physical restriction. But it could not do that which cannot be done.
Melis wrote:"Omnipotence to a certain degree" is not omnipotence by definition -"omni" means everything, "potence" means ability (I know everybody knows, but just in case).
So, does omnipresence mean that he is in places which do not and can not exist?
Melis wrote:Every and each one of us, and animals, are omnipotent to a certain degree, so we are all candidates for being a god.
No. We all have limitations far beyond the logical ones.
Melis wrote:Also, logical and impossible as we understand it, obviously doesn't have to apply to god, as he might have his own logic.
No. Logic is logic.
1. You said (if I understood it correctly) that a) talking donkey was not logical, and b) god could not do illogical things - is this not a contradiction? I know you don't actually believe the talking donkey story, but still, if we accept what the bible claims.
2. Yes - omnipresence is presence everywhere. Which places do not and can not exist? If you can think of them, they at least exist in your imagination or your mind, and someone who is omnipresent is also present there.
3. "Logic is logic". Firstly, this is a tautology. Secondly, you can't be so sure when it comes to supernatural, what kind of logic a supernatural being can have. We can only assume that it should have the same logic as we, but that doesn't necessarily have to be the case.
4. Humans are able to do illogical things, too. For example, we are able to draw an illogical conclusion, like:
A = B; C = D; therefore A = D.

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Post #68

Post by harvey1 »

Melis wrote:Really? Very interesting. Goodbye Einstein, Planck, Heisenberg, Hawking, etc., etc., and all the modern physics.
First off, why are you getting sarcastic? Have I said something to personally offend you? You asked a question, and I gave you a straightforward answer.
Melis wrote:You must be talking about the vacuum quantum fluctuations, which doesn't violate the physical laws (you can do a little research on this).
Sir, you said, "the laws of physics doesn't allow to create something out of nothing," and I merely pointed out that this is not the case. Vacuum quantum fluctuations don't violate physical laws, but they do provide evidence that something can be created out of nothing.
melis wrote:What sense does it make for omnipotent God to create laws of physics which he would be constrained by? He could have created them any way he wished.
I can only speculate, but I imagine that the laws represent the least action needed for God to accomplish God's will to find eternal, good results. That would mean that God determines what is the least amount of action, and that universe (or at least one of them) is the one we live in. So, this is the way God wishes to create.
Melis wrote:If God is constrained by the laws of physics, he MUST BE physical himself, since the word "physics" pertain to something physical, i.e. must be in the realm of either matter or energy. The science of physics doesn't deal with ghosts, demons, etc.
Physics is a set of laws, and the laws are not material stuff--the laws I suspect are relations between universals. These relations are not material, and God respects these relations and does not violate them.
Melis wrote:All above is valid if we talk about our ordinary understanding of the "laws of physics". If you refer to some other "laws of physics" then we should call them some other name, for example "laws of physics X", so we could distinguish them.
Laws of physics are any and all laws that affect the physical world. The currently known laws of physics is only an approximation to whatever those real laws of physics turn out to be. Given the success of our currently known laws, I think we can say that we have successfully identified good approximations to what those ultimate laws are like.
Melis wrote:I could say that I have my own laws, according to which a man could be turned into frog - but I would assume that would not be welcomed by the scientists.
A better grasp of the laws, if known by an extraterrestrial intelligence (ETI) civilization, may very well allow a man to turn into a frog. Since we can only speculate what the real laws are like, we should focus on what they appear to be right now.
People say of the last day, that God shall give judgment. This is true. But it is not true as people imagine. Every man pronounces his own sentence; as he shows himself here in his essence, so will he remain everlastingly -- Meister Eckhart

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Post #69

Post by Melis »

First off, why are you getting sarcastic? Have I said something to personally offend you?
I apologize if you are annoyed by the sarcasm. I'm a physicist myself, and I can tell that you are simply wrong - you are trying to imply something about physics which is not the case (see also below), and that is something I dislike - it reminds me of quasi sciences a la anthroposophy.
Sir, you said, "the laws of physics doesn't allow to create something out of nothing," and I merely pointed out that this is not the case. Vacuum quantum fluctuations don't violate physical laws, but they do provide evidence that something can be created out of nothing.
Again, this is not the case. Equivalence of matter and energy is not violated, so if you claim the opposite, you are directly denying the science of Mr. Einstein and others.
I can only speculate, but I imagine that the laws represent the least action needed for God to accomplish God's will to find eternal, good results. That would mean that God determines what is the least amount of action, and that universe (or at least one of them) is the one we live in. So, this is the way God wishes to create.
Well, it is what you believe, and everyone is free to have his beliefs.

Physics is a set of laws, and the laws are not material stuff--the laws I suspect are relations between universals. These relations are not material, and God respects these relations and does not violate them.
Again, the laws are not material, but they tend to describe what is material and pertain ONLY to material and not to the spiritual. So they do not affect god unless he is material (which comprises matter+energy).
Laws of physics are any and all laws that affect the physical world.
Now you're saying the same thing I said, yet you have disagreed a few sentences above.
A better grasp of the laws, if known by an extraterrestrial intelligence (ETI) civilization, may very well allow a man to turn into a frog. Since we can only speculate what the real laws are like, we should focus on what they appear to be right now
We can do much more than only speculate what the real laws are like. The scientists use the scientific method. They make theories, experiments and observations. If the observations and theory agree, it is a good chance that the theory works.
If we were only speculating, we couldn't have traveled to space, use cell phones, even debating on this forum, etc.

Also, the same laws of physics are very likely to be valid in every place in this universe we observe, otherwise one would be faced with many complications. So it is highly improbable that some ETs would know how to turn a man into a frog, since it is physically impossible.

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Post #70

Post by harvey1 »

Melis wrote:Again, this is not the case. Equivalence of matter and energy is not violated, so if you claim the opposite, you are directly denying the science of Mr. Einstein and others.
Quantum theory and relativity theory are well known to be theories that are in conflict in certain areas. I believe that Einstein argued against Bohr about non-local interactions within quantum theory as being violations of special relativity, but Aspect experiments et al. are showing that Bohr was correct. In any case, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle allows for the existence of virtual particles. Measured effects of these virtual particles such as the Casimir effect have been shown to reliably account for their presence.
Melis wrote:Well, it is what you believe, and everyone is free to have his beliefs.
Of course, but my point is that this is an example of how God can be omnipotent within the context of the laws of physics.
Melis wrote:Again, the laws are not material, but they tend to describe what is material and pertain ONLY to material and not to the spiritual. So they do not affect god unless he is material (which comprises matter+energy).
You can't say they do not affect God. Many of the laws appear to follow from certain logical implications, and for God to violate a logical implication would undermine logic. For example, a logical implication of time travel is that one could travel in the past and prevent their parents from meeting. If God allowed time travel and even made it possible, then surely this experiment of preventing the future from occurring would be tried. What is the logical implication of an event that must occur and did occur from not occurring? It implies there is no logic and that there is irrationality to the Universe. We cannot say if this affects God. Perhaps God's existence depends on the fact that the world is a logical place, or at least logical in some important ways.
Melis wrote:
Laws of physics are any and all laws that affect the physical world.
Now you're saying the same thing I said, yet you have disagreed a few sentences above.
By physical world I am not just referring to our universe, but all of creation. If irrationality exists in creation, then it might be a violation of God's existence.
Melis wrote:We can do much more than only speculate what the real laws are like. The scientists use the scientific method. They make theories, experiments and observations. If the observations and theory agree, it is a good chance that the theory works.
If we were only speculating, we couldn't have traveled to space, use cell phones, even debating on this forum, etc.
Of course we aren't speculating on what the laws do or allow us to do, but we are speculating on what the laws are really like. It's possible that we are in the infancy of understanding the laws of nature. It's also possible that we are nearing the end of understanding the laws. The point is that we can only speculate what the final TOE is going to look like. It might be nothing like the current notions of string theory. That's not to say these are speculations--we can agree that they are approximations to whatever the final TOE is to look like.
Melis wrote:Also, the same laws of physics are very likely to be valid in every place in this universe we observe, otherwise one would be faced with many complications. So it is highly improbable that some ETs would know how to turn a man into a frog, since it is physically impossible.
It is physically impossible for us, but it may not be physically impossible for an ETI. They might have knowledge about quantum physics that we cannot even comprehend. Arthur C. Clarke once said, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
People say of the last day, that God shall give judgment. This is true. But it is not true as people imagine. Every man pronounces his own sentence; as he shows himself here in his essence, so will he remain everlastingly -- Meister Eckhart

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