The Problem with the Problem of Evil

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williamryan
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The Problem with the Problem of Evil

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Post by williamryan »

I'm new to this site. I've surfed around a bit on this topic, and I've constantly run into incantations of the problem of evil. I've seen Juliod, among others, use it over and over. I hope this thread will isolate the real issues of contention and shed some light on this often misused and abused argument. I have learned much from William Lane Craig and Alvin Plantinga's writings on this matter, and much of what I say is from their writings.

There are two basic versions of the problem of evil: deductive and probalistic (aka inductive). The propontent of the deductive problem of evil attempts to show that the existence of Deductive looks like this:

1. If a God exists who is omnipotent (all powerful) and omnibenevolent (all loving),
2. and evil exists,
3. then God cannot be omnipotent or omnibenevolent.

This version of the argument has been almost completely abandoned by professional philosophers today. It lives on in its popular level form and is made immortal by producing this corpse of an argument between non-philosopher friends. Alvin Plantinga (a preeminent Christian philosopher at Notre Dame and past president of the Amer. Philosophical Assoc., which is the main association of professional philosophers) showed that this version of the problem of evil is logically untenable.

Alvin Plantinga presented a "defense" as opposed to a theodicy. A theodicy is an effort to explain why God would allow evil to exist. A defense, however, merely seeks to show that the atheist has failed to carry their case that evil is incompatible with God's existence. In other words, a sucessful defense with show that the atheist has failed to show that evil is logically incompatible with God's existence, while leaving us in the dark as to why God allows evil.

The deductive argument was destroyed because, in short, the atheist has assumed an overwhelming burden. Premises (1) and (2), above, are at not explicitly, logically inconsistent. An explicit, logically inconsistent statement would be that "God is blue, but God is not blue."

If the atheist thinks that premises (1) and (2) are implicitly inconsistent, then he or she must be assuming some hidden premise(s) that would make the inconsistency explicit. Those premises seem to be these:

(3) If God is omnipotent, then God can create any world that God desires.
(4) If God is omnibenevolent, then God prefers a world without evil over a world with evil.

Hidden premise (3) then is the view that if God is omnipotent, he could create a world that were all humans freely choose to do the right thing. This world would then be free of all moral evil: no lying, no cheating, no murder etc. So, because we can conceive of a world in which everyone freely chooses every time to do the right thing, and God is all-powerful, then God must be able to create it.

This links with hidden premise (4) because if God was powerful enough to create this type of world, then he certaintly would because he is all-loving. In other words, if God had the choice between creating a flawed, evil world like this one and creating one w/o any evil, then God would most certainly chose the latter. Otherwise, God would be evil to prefer that people experience pain and suffering when God could have given them happiness and prosperity.

In David Hume's Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion, he summarized this last point when he asked: "Is he willing to prevent evil, but not able? then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?"

Plantinga and others object to hidden premise (3) with what he calls the free will defense. It goes like this: if it is possible that humans have complete freedom to make choices, then (3) and (4) are not necessarily true. If humans have freedom to make choices, then it is not necessarily true that God could have created another world in which no evil exists but people have complete freedom of choice. This is because God's omnipotence doesn't imply that God can do logical impossibilities like create a round triangle or make a married bachelor, or make someone freely chose to do something.

All God can really do is create a world in which a person may freely chose to act and then allow that person to make the free choice. This implies that there are possible worlds that are not feasible for God to create. Just like its not "feasible" for God to create a round triangle or a married bachelor. This does not impinge on God's omnipotence though, because God cannot be impinged for not being able to do a logical impossibility. Another example how how non-sensical this is, is for someone to say that God is not all-powerful because he cannot exist and non exist at the same time.

So, suppose that in every feasible world that God could create, free creatures sometimes choice evil. Here it is us, the creature, not God that is responsible for evil and God can do nothing to prevent their ability to choose the evil, apart from refusing to create such a world at all. Therefore it is at least possible that feasible world that God could create that contains free human beings is a world that has evil in it.

I'm about to say something that will seem crazy and you might be tempted to label be a total fundamentalist and crazy, but please keep reading past the next few sentences. As for natural evils (i.e. earthquakes, tornadoes, etc.) it is possible that these evils could result from demonic activity. Demons could have freedom just like humans and it is possible that God could not preclude natural evil w/o removing demons' free will. You might be thinking, "That is ridiculous!" and you might even think that it is a spurious, frivolous argument. But only let this thought last a few moments lest you confuse the deductive argument with the probabilistic arguments. I admit, ascribing all evil to demonic beings is improbable, but that is completely irrevelant to the deductive version of this argument. Probability only enters the calculus in the probalistic argument. All I must do here is show that such an explanation (both for the moral evil and natural evil) is merely possible.

In summary, hidden premise (3), that an omnipotent God can create any world he desires, is plainly not necessarily true. Therefore, the atheist's argument on this ground alone fails, which causes the whole argument to fail. But we can go further, what about hidden premise (4).

What about (4), the hidden premise that if God is all-loving then he would prefer a world w/o evil over a world with evil. Again, this is not necessarily true. By analogy, we allow pain and suffering to exist in a person's life to bring about some greater good. Every parent knows this. There comes a time when parents cannot protect their child from every mishap, or when the parent must discipline the child so the child matures. Similarly, God could permit suffering in our lives to build us or test us or others and to achieve some greater good. Therefore, premise (4) is also not necessarily true. And again the argument fails, this time on totally separate grounds. Notice that the atheist must show that both (3) and (4) are true, while the theist merely need show one is false.

If I may be permitted to read some of your minds, at this point you might be thinking, "Even if there is no inconsistency between God and evil, surely the existence of God is incompatible with the amount and kinds of evils that actually exist." What good, you might ask, could possibly come from a pregnant mother in the wrong part of town that is struck down by a stray bullet fired from a gang member's 9mm?

This as its own hidden premise, that God cannot have morally sufficient reasons to allow the amount and kinds of evil that exist. But again, this is not necessarily true, and all I must show is that it is possible that God has a morally sufficient reason. As terrible as some things about the world are, people generally agree that life is worth living, from which we could surmise that there is much more good that evil in the world, regardless of the amount and kind of evil actually present. As for the kinds of evil, it is possible that God has some overriding reasons to permit the kinds of evil that occur.

Again, you might think that that seems pretty unlikely. But this would confuse the deductive problem with the probabilistic problem again. To refute the deductive version, the theist doesn't have to suggest a likely solution--all he or she must do is suggest a possible solution.

In summary, the atheist assumes at least two hidden premises in the deductive version of this argument. He or she must prove both of those premises for this version to be true. I have shown that both of those hidden premises can be indenpendently refuted.

Further, because it is the atheist who claims to note a contradicition w/in the theist's truth claims, it is the atheist that bears the burden of proof to show that there is no possible world in which premises (1) and (2) are true. That is an incredibly heavy burden, which the atheist ultimately cannot shoulder. The deductive version of the problem of evil is impotent.


Probabilistic Version

After the deductive argument was destroyed, most who want to use the problem of evil (POE) to show that God cannot be all loving or all powerful moved to the probabilistic argument. The inductive version admits that it is possible for the traditional God of Christianity and evil to coexist, but it is highly improbable for them to coexist. The argument looks like this:

1. If a god exists who is all loving and all powerful,
2. yet evil exists,
3. then it is highly improbable or unlikely that a god exists who is all loving or all powerful.

Let me make a few observations. Notice that even if the Christian granted this argument, this argument does not show that God does not exist. It is, however, a step along that path. At most, this argument can claim that the type of God posited by traditional Christianity does not exist. Further, this argument cannot show that God is not all loving and not all powerful; it can only show that one of this is incorrect. But this is all only the case if we grant this argument, and there are powerful reasons not to grant it.[/u]

Given that this post is way too long already, I'll be brief here, and will flesh out my comments on this version as other posts come in (if anybody actually gets this far into the novel :)

(1) Given the full scope of the evidence for God's existence, it is far more likely than not that God exists.

(2) Because of our finite nature, we are not in a good position to asses with a sufficient confidence that God has no morally sufficient reasons for permitting the evils that occur.

(3) Christianity entails doctrines that increase the probability that God and evil coexist

I look forward to your comments.

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Post #121

Post by harvey1 »

The Happy Humanist wrote:...in my scenario, the world wouldn't exist in the first place. The omniscient creator-god would see ahead of time all the machinations he would have to go through in order to keep things straight, and see that there would, of necessity, be a certain amount of evil that had to be tolerated in order to keep things from getting out of hand. Seeing all of that and being compelled by his nature to do the least evil thing, he would opt not to create the universe to begin with. No universe = no evil = no time-travelling human/computer hybrid = Harvey1's scenario is of no relevance.
I disagree. Ultimately, evil is separation from God's goodness, and the phenomenal world begins in darkness and void. God's goodness is light that penetrates that darkness according to processes that best exemplify God's goodness. This introduces a struggle of good and evil into the world, and therefore God is justified in bringing about the demise of evil.
People say of the last day, that God shall give judgment. This is true. But it is not true as people imagine. Every man pronounces his own sentence; as he shows himself here in his essence, so will he remain everlastingly -- Meister Eckhart

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Post #122

Post by harvey1 »

Scrotum wrote:Harv, how can you "travel in time" when time is linear (oneway). "Time" is not like a tunnel you know. You cant "Travel Back" or "To" anything. "Back" has already happened, does not exist anymore, "To" has not happened, and does not exist yet.
I don't see how you can hold such a position in light of special and general relativity, and even quantum mechanics. We already have good evidence from superluminal experiments that "the peak of the pulse appears to leave the cell before entering it." The quantum experiments of time travel are even more convincing.
People say of the last day, that God shall give judgment. This is true. But it is not true as people imagine. Every man pronounces his own sentence; as he shows himself here in his essence, so will he remain everlastingly -- Meister Eckhart

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Post #123

Post by The Happy Humanist »

I disagree. Ultimately, evil is separation from God's goodness, and the phenomenal world begins in darkness and void. God's goodness is light that penetrates that darkness according to processes that best exemplify God's goodness. This introduces a struggle of good and evil into the world, and therefore God is justified in bringing about the demise of evil.
"The phenomenal world begins in darkness and void" because God made it that way. If you want to argue that he's trying his darnedest to overcome evil, that's fine. But I've already granted him ultipotence; shall I now allow him to concede "ultibenevolence"?

I certainly don't feel obligated to argue against every permutation of "the way things could be," especially when I hew to the simplest such permutation, one that explains the most with the fewest words: "No god, stuff happens."
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Post #124

Post by harvey1 »

The Happy Humanist wrote:"The phenomenal world begins in darkness and void" because God made it that way.
Why is this necessary? It seems to me that if God made no action at all, there would be nothing--that is, the phenomenal world would be void of all stuff. This is a state of incompleteness and could give God good reason to give completeness to creation.
THH wrote:But I've already granted him ultipotence; shall I now allow him to concede "ultibenevolence"?
I've said from the beginning of this thread that God's power and goodness must be seen in a counterfactual perspective. That is, there are somethings that are necessary (logically and physically) which God must conform while still achieving God's will of there existing an all-good world. I don't see anything you've said which shows this as impossible, or even unlikely.
THH wrote:I certainly don't feel obligated to argue against every permutation of "the way things could be," especially when I hew to the simplest such permutation, one that explains the most with the fewest words: "No god, stuff happens."
That view is not tenable. Do you really think that Bugs Bunny could pop out of the ground? C'mon, THH, there's laws that dictate that stuff doesn't just happen. Even in cases where virtual particles just "pop in" and "pop out" there's quantum rules which are obeyed.
People say of the last day, that God shall give judgment. This is true. But it is not true as people imagine. Every man pronounces his own sentence; as he shows himself here in his essence, so will he remain everlastingly -- Meister Eckhart

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Post #125

Post by The Happy Humanist »

Harvey1 wrote:
The Happy Humanist wrote:"The phenomenal world begins in darkness and void" because God made it that way.
Why is this necessary? It seems to me that if God made no action at all, there would be nothing--that is, the phenomenal world would be void of all stuff. This is a state of incompleteness and could give God good reason to give completeness to creation.
You speak as if God happens upon a "phenomenal world" that is "void of all stuff" and says, "Hmm...this strikes me as incomplete. Let me put a few touches on it...there!"

I am speaking of the time before there is a phenomenal world, when there is nothing to be void or incomplete. At some point God (who I assume you agree pre-existed such a world) decided to create it, and to put stuff in it. It is at that time that he would, in his omniscience, realize the consequences of creating a universe in which mankind would suffer horribly (sometimes in his name - and sometimes at his doing!), and his omnibenevolence would obligate him to refrain from doing so, since the status quo (just heaven, no earth) would be evil-free and therefore the better choice. If he still wanted to create "people" to keep him company, he could create them in heaven straightaway, fully free-willed and fully incapable of sin. This is what an omnibenevolent God would have to do in order to retain the title. Anything less is, at best, ulti-benevolent (in your terms "counterfactually benevolent") , and more likely just not real smart or super-good - and therefore not worthy of undying worship.
I've said from the beginning of this thread that God's power and goodness must be seen in a counterfactual perspective. That is, there are somethings that are necessary (logically and physically) which God must conform while still achieving God's will of there existing an all-good world. I don't see anything you've said which shows this as impossible, or even unlikely.
If we're talking likelyhood, "No god" seems the more probable solution, based on the amount of mental gymnastics one must perform in order to maintain the God-as-benevolent-creator scenario.
That view is not tenable. Do you really think that Bugs Bunny could pop out of the ground?
Bad example. He does it all the time. I know, I watched him do it this morning.
C'mon, THH, there's laws that dictate that stuff doesn't just happen. Even in cases where virtual particles just "pop in" and "pop out" there's quantum rules which are obeyed.
I didn't say "stuff happens randomly without cause." The fact that there are rules to be obeyed, and the universe appears to obey them without fail, actually speaks against the idea of a creator who can defy them at will. I know you claim that he is an embodiment of those rules, but, to use your phrase, Why is this necessary? I perceive the "rules" to be a mere consequence of existence. Object A and object B will, by virtue of their very existence, relate to each other and interact with each other in a certain consistent way because they simply have to, or the universe could not be sustained. Support: Picture a universe without such rules. You cannot.
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Post #126

Post by Easyrider »

The Happy Humanist wrote:At some point God (who I assume you agree pre-existed such a world) decided to create it, and to put stuff in it. It is at that time that he would, in his omniscience, realize the consequences of creating a universe in which mankind would suffer horribly (sometimes in his name - and sometimes at his doing!), and his omnibenevolence would obligate him to refrain from doing so, since the status quo (just heaven, no earth) would be evil-free and therefore the better choice. If he still wanted to create "people" to keep him company, he could create them in heaven straightaway, fully free-willed and fully incapable of sin. This is what an omnibenevolent God would have to do in order to retain the title. Anything less is, at best, ulti-benevolent (in your terms "counterfactually benevolent") , and more likely just not real smart or super-good - and therefore not worthy of undying worship.
In your scenario, people are then just "pre-programmed" robots - "fully incapable of sin," as you put it. This hardly qualifies people as "fully free-willed," even though that's what you are claiming.

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Post #127

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The Happy Humanist wrote:I am speaking of the time before there is a phenomenal world, when there is nothing to be void or incomplete.
There is no "before." This is the point by which the flow of time emerges.
THH wrote:At some point God (who I assume you agree pre-existed such a world) decided to create it, and to put stuff in it.
There is "nothing," so there is nothing for God to pre-exist.
THH wrote:It is at that time that he would, in his omniscience, realize the consequences of creating a universe in which mankind would suffer horribly (sometimes in his name - and sometimes at his doing!), and his omnibenevolence would obligate him to refrain from doing so, since the status quo (just heaven, no earth) would be evil-free and therefore the better choice. If he still wanted to create "people" to keep him company, he could create them in heaven straightaway, fully free-willed and fully incapable of sin.
You don't know the constraints on God. God may have a process (e.g., least action) which is just as important to follow as obtaining the results. As it turns out, this is what I believe because least action appears to be a mathematical principle observed in nature.
THH wrote:This is what an omnibenevolent God would have to do in order to retain the title.
Omnibenevolence requires that God seek absolute goodness in the world, but if absolute goodness must be done in a manner to avoid paradox, then God is "ulti"-benevolent for obtaining these results without bringing about a paradox.
THH wrote:Anything less is, at best, ulti-benevolent (in your terms "counterfactually benevolent") , and more likely just not real smart or super-good - and therefore not worthy of undying worship.
I think the opposite. God is the hero because God puts the world on the divine shoulders and carries the world to victory despite the opposition (not to mention those who are just ungrateful).
THH wrote:"No god" seems the more probable solution, based on the amount of mental gymnastics one must perform in order to maintain the God-as-benevolent-creator scenario.
Nah. The least action principle alone should give us good reason to believe God exists. Besides, atheism ultimately requires that we believe that there's no laws to the world, and observation alone shows us that this isn't the case.
THH wrote:Bad example. He does it all the time. I know, I watched him do it this morning.
No, you never seen that. What you saw was photons created from an electron gun sitting inside a picture tube. (Now that we have plasma and LCD television, the situation is a little more varied.)
THH wrote:The fact that there are rules to be obeyed, and the universe appears to obey them without fail, actually speaks against the idea of a creator who can defy them at will. I know you claim that he is an embodiment of those rules, but, to use your phrase, Why is this necessary? I perceive the "rules" to be a mere consequence of existence. Object A and object B will, by virtue of their very existence, relate to each other and interact with each other in a certain consistent way because they simply have to, or the universe could not be sustained. Support: Picture a universe without such rules. You cannot.
But, why must this stuff continue to exist? Why must this stuff continue to exist as it has in the past? Why does it organize itself along a certain way that is mathematical? Why are the equations of its behavior so simple and beautiful that they can be written on the back of a napkin? I could go on and on, but I'll spare you the lecture.
People say of the last day, that God shall give judgment. This is true. But it is not true as people imagine. Every man pronounces his own sentence; as he shows himself here in his essence, so will he remain everlastingly -- Meister Eckhart

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Post #128

Post by The Happy Humanist »

In your scenario, people are then just "pre-programmed" robots - "fully incapable of sin," as you put it. This hardly qualifies people as "fully free-willed," even though that's what you are claiming.
I agree 100%. Problem is, it's not my scenario. :eyebrow: You see, "fully free-willed and fully incapable of sin" is exactly what the theists would have us believe the situation to be in heaven when we go there after death. We can only assume that when we enter heaven, we are made incapable of sin O:) (there can be no sin in heaven, of course) but somehow God is able to retain our free-will - after all, if God doesn't want pre-programmed robots on earth, then he certainly doesn't want them in heaven! And we wouldn't want it either - take away our free will, and it's not "us" up there, it's some lobotomized version of us that we wouldn't even recognize.

So if God can perform this feat after our deaths, he certainly could have performed it before - and instead of - creating the universe.

If you have trouble with this scenario, just remember...I'm the one who doesn't believe in any of this in the first place.... 8-)
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Post #129

Post by The Happy Humanist »

Harvey1 wrote:
The Happy Humanist wrote:I am speaking of the time before there is a phenomenal world, when there is nothing to be void or incomplete.
There is no "before." This is the point by which the flow of time emerges.
Of course, I understand this concept with respect to conventional cosmology. But are you saying that God did not pre-exist the known universe? That he does not exist in some timeless realm that transcends the cosmos? Because that would be (a) a rather unique viewpoint, and (b) problematic for theology. The creation of the universe, in most theologies, was an intentional, willed act. Such an act requires a decision-space, a temporal "envelope" to encompass the act of deciding to create the universe. Perhaps it does not happen in "our" space-time, but it had to have happened in SOME kind of a time-line. You can't seriously be claiming that God came into existence, decided to create the universe, and then did so, ALL at T=0?

THH wrote:At some point God (who I assume you agree pre-existed such a world) decided to create it, and to put stuff in it.
There is "nothing," so there is nothing for God to pre-exist.
Same answer. You've got some rather...off-beat ideas, Harvey, I must say. Always a pleasure to hear them of course...
THH wrote:It is at that time that he would, in his omniscience, realize the consequences of creating a universe in which mankind would suffer horribly (sometimes in his name - and sometimes at his doing!), and his omnibenevolence would obligate him to refrain from doing so, since the status quo (just heaven, no earth) would be evil-free and therefore the better choice. If he still wanted to create "people" to keep him company, he could create them in heaven straightaway, fully free-willed and fully incapable of sin.
You don't know the constraints on God. God may have a process (e.g., least action) which is just as important to follow as obtaining the results. As it turns out, this is what I believe because least action appears to be a mathematical principle observed in nature.
Of course, you know how I feel about your "Appeal to Ignorance." I can't be certain of the constraints on Saddaam Hussein, either. He might in fact be some demi-God who was in fact saving the earth from fiendish alien invaders, and had to make it look like he was a tyrannical dictator to do so. In short, I think your answer comes under the heading of "God: An entity so powerful that he can overcome any logical objection to his existence." Its easy - just define him as being above scrutiny, and presto! Win any theological debate!
THH wrote:This is what an omnibenevolent God would have to do in order to retain the title.
Omnibenevolence requires that God seek absolute goodness in the world, but if absolute goodness must be done in a manner to avoid paradox, then God is "ulti"-benevolent for obtaining these results without bringing about a paradox.
Yes. Quite. Or...he simply doesn't exist.
THH wrote:Anything less is, at best, ulti-benevolent (in your terms "counterfactually benevolent") , and more likely just not real smart or super-good - and therefore not worthy of undying worship.
I think the opposite. God is the hero because God puts the world on the divine shoulders and carries the world to victory despite the opposition (not to mention those who are just ungrateful).
Yay, God! Crash right through that goal-line!! Spike that football!! Say "Hi, mom!" on national TV!!!!
THH wrote:"No god" seems the more probable solution, based on the amount of mental gymnastics one must perform in order to maintain the God-as-benevolent-creator scenario.
Nah. The least action principle alone should give us good reason to believe God exists. Besides, atheism ultimately requires that we believe that there's no laws to the world, and observation alone shows us that this isn't the case.
Uh, ya wanna show me how atheism requires that there's no laws to the world? Or point me to a thread where you may have made this point before?
THH wrote:Bad example. He does it all the time. I know, I watched him do it this morning.
No, you never seen that. What you saw was photons created from an electron gun sitting inside a picture tube. (Now that we have plasma and LCD television, the situation is a little more varied.)
You must be a real hoot at Dungeons & Dragons...
But, why must this stuff continue to exist? Why must this stuff continue to exist as it has in the past? Why does it organize itself along a certain way that is mathematical? Why are the equations of its behavior so simple and beautiful that they can be written on the back of a napkin? I could go on and on, but I'll spare you the lecture.
[/quote]

Because it has to by virtue of its existence. Once existence has been achieved (in whatever manner), continuance is the default. Organization is the default. NOT continuing, NOT being ordered, would be miraculous, as it would go against the grain of existence.
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Post #130

Post by harvey1 »

The Happy Humanist wrote:But are you saying that God did not pre-exist the known universe?
I'm saying that "nothing" is the only logical possibility if God has not begun to create. The universe is not nothing.
THH wrote:That he does not exist in some timeless realm that transcends the cosmos?
I think God does exist in a timeless realm, however nothing exists at the point to where temporal flow (the creation of this universe) came to exist.
THH wrote:The creation of the universe, in most theologies, was an intentional, willed act. Such an act requires a decision-space, a temporal "envelope" to encompass the act of deciding to create the universe. Perhaps it does not happen in "our" space-time, but it had to have happened in SOME kind of a time-line. You can't seriously be claiming that God came into existence, decided to create the universe, and then did so, ALL at T=0?
No, you must be misunderstanding me. The creation of the universe was a creation ex nihilo (out of nothing), and the phenomenal world logically begins with nothing. God did not make the nothing, the nothing exists because there is... er... nothing. God causally precedes the material universe, but existed when there was nothing. God instantiates the world with a temporal flow, and as a result there is the creation which is locked into a struggle to bring about Goodness.
THH wrote:You've got some rather...off-beat ideas, Harvey, I must say. Always a pleasure to hear them of course...
In this case I think this is traditional Augustinean theology. God created the world out of nothing.
THH wrote:Of course, you know how I feel about your "Appeal to Ignorance." I can't be certain of the constraints on Saddaam Hussein, either. He might in fact be some demi-God who was in fact saving the earth from fiendish alien invaders, and had to make it look like he was a tyrannical dictator to do so. In short, I think your answer comes under the heading of "God: An entity so powerful that he can overcome any logical objection to his existence." Its easy - just define him as being above scrutiny, and presto! Win any theological debate!
Actually, my argument isn't an appeal to ignorance, but your argument is. Appeal to ignorance is when we claim knowledge based on our ignorance, which is exactly what you are doing by saying that we do not know the constraints on God so there aren't any. I provided a perfectly reasonable constraint (i.e., least action), and I'm sure there's hundreds more if that one so readily comes to my immediate attention at the top of my head. That alone shows why your appeal to ignorance is not valid.
THH wrote:Or...he simply doesn't exist.
To be honest, I think there's a lot more evidence for God existing than you, but that's another story.
THH wrote:Uh, ya wanna show me how atheism requires that there's no laws to the world? Or point me to a thread where you may have made this point before?
The atheist cannot say that the world exists because of intelligence, so the atheist is forced to say that it exists because of a brute fact. However, the brute fact world continues to endure because of another brute fact--a fact that it must continue to endure. So, this means that there are no laws since the world is just brute fact events that continue to brute factly happen. Since this is not tenable, people ought to be theists.
THH wrote:
But, why must this stuff continue to exist? Why must this stuff continue to exist as it has in the past?
Because it has to by virtue of its existence. Once existence has been achieved (in whatever manner), continuance is the default. Organization is the default. NOT continuing, NOT being ordered, would be miraculous, as it would go against the grain of existence.
Well, firstly, why must it continue? If it something versus nothing exists by brute fact, then why can't another brute fact make it so that nothing versus something be the case? Why is this organization mathematical versus magical? Are you saying that there's mathematical laws that make it non-magical? Why must the order be consistent, why not have a different brute fact every 5 minutes or so? It seems in this atheistic conception that our universe could have begun 5 minutes ago as a result of one complex brute fact (stocked with memories and slew of evidence), with only a new brute fact world to replace that world every 5 minutes.

In my theistic world, the one that I think is far more likely given our observations, there are deep principles of nature which exist that show beauty and order in particular ways which see the universe becoming self-organized toward what appears to be higher and higher intelligence. The world looks more like a self-extracting file more than a hodge podge of brute facts somehow holding themselves together. For that reason, theism is infinitely more likely to be correct, or so I think.
People say of the last day, that God shall give judgment. This is true. But it is not true as people imagine. Every man pronounces his own sentence; as he shows himself here in his essence, so will he remain everlastingly -- Meister Eckhart

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