I offer this thread as a Christian who supports gay rights as an admittedly forward challenge to my brothers and sisters in Christ.
In Acts Ch. 14 and 15, Luke describes James and the other Apostles discussions which led them to exempt Gentiles from well over 99% of the Law of Moses. The main reason they did so was to avoid putting an excessive burden on Gentiles. Implicit in their decision was the issue that expecting everyone to follow these traditional rules, rules that many saw as outdated, would be a drag on the new movement.
Today, we see polls like this one that indicate many young people leaving the church or the faith because of the negative attitude displayed by many religious people towards gays and lesbians.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/2 ... ign=buffer
1) Would it not make sense for Christians to lay aside anti-gay rhetoric, including quoting of Biblical verses that are claimed to condemn homosexuality, if for no other reason than it is counter-productive to evangelism?
2) Does not Jesus' own ministry, and the actions of the Apostles as described in Acts 15 give ample precedent for laying aside Biblical verses that seem to allude to homosexuality?
I will note that Christianity has by and large already set aside many precepts now seen to be archaic, including the idea that women should never speak in church, and that we should simply accept any and all governments as instituted by God and worthy of our obedience. The Declaration of Independence, in particular, repudiates this notion, outlined by Paul in his letters.
I will note that Jesus is quoted in the gospels as explicitly laying aside aspects of the law, and that he was criticized by many of his fellow believers, especially those who were arguably most religious, for doing so.
I will point out that the faith of those conservative believers rather quickly became a small minority as compared to Christianity.
It really comes down to this:
3) Is non-acceptance of homosexuality so central to Christianity that Christians should cling to traditional notions against homosexuality, or can we lay those aside as tangential to the central message of the gospel?
Christian Reasons to Support Gay Rights
Moderator: Moderators
Christian Reasons to Support Gay Rights
Post #1" . . . the line separating good and evil passes, not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart . . . ." Alexander Solzhenitsyn
Post #291
[Replying to post 288 by Clownboat]
Hello Clownboat,
You said,"This is a debate site, not a pulpit.
Pulpits are for preaching, debates sites are for... well, you take a guess."
Ok I "git" it!
This is a sight for people to debate and debate and debate in circles and circles and circles and circles never to arrive at or receive any valid answer! I "understand."
Take care,
Earl
Hello Clownboat,
You said,"This is a debate site, not a pulpit.
Pulpits are for preaching, debates sites are for... well, you take a guess."
Ok I "git" it!
This is a sight for people to debate and debate and debate in circles and circles and circles and circles never to arrive at or receive any valid answer! I "understand."
Take care,
Earl
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Post #292
Never did I say such a thing. The jump you just made is a jump Evil Kneivel couldn't have made. Congratulations.Erexsaur wrote: [Replying to post 288 by Clownboat]
Hello Clownboat,
You said,"This is a debate site, not a pulpit.
Pulpits are for preaching, debates sites are for... well, you take a guess."
Ok I "git" it!
This is a sight for people to debate and debate and debate in circles and circles and circles and circles never to arrive at or receive any valid answer! I "understand."
Take care,
Earl
Please examine my words and explain if you can how you arrived at the conclusion above in bold. IMO, it seems like you are just mad at having your preaching addressed.
Perhaps you are not open to having your mind changed? If that is the case, I suggest you don't project that on to others. For example, I was a born again, spirit filled, drunk in the holy ghost Christian for 2 decades. Obviously, I am open to changing my thoughts on a matter, even one as emotionally driven as religion.
If you can present a compelling case, not a compelling sermon, I am likely to adjust my thinking. Can you say the same?
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
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Post #295
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
Re: Christian Reasons to Support Gay Rights
Post #296There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root.
Henry D. Thoreau
to one who is striking at the root.
Henry D. Thoreau
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Re: Christian Reasons to Support Gay Rights
Post #297You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU
It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco
If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb
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Re: Christian Reasons to Support Gay Rights
Post #298That's incorrect about transgender people. Many do identify as male or female, they just feel that their internal gender identity doesn't match their external sex. For example, there are:[color=red]arian[/color] wrote: Woe, .. who you calling 'brother and sister'? What if I am a woman trapped inside a mans body ey? Do you know how deeply wounding your reference to me as a brother would be? I would not have you call me a sister in Christ either, for what if I am a man trapped inside a woman's body ey? Just call me "Genderless in Christ" or I will haul you before a genderless judge for breaking the law. NO MORE this Brothers and sisters stuff, aren't we one in Christ?
Is there male of female in Heaven? Huh, .. is there?
It's the law now, so you better watch what gender you attribute to people. And no more words like 'mother or father either'!
1) Male to female people (women assigned male at birth, they would be referred to with she/her/hers pronouns, "sister," "wife," etc.
2) Female to male people (men assigned female at birth, they would be referred to with he/him/his pronouns, "brother," "husband," etc.).
There are also some transgender people who do identify as genderless (having no gender identity) or genderqueer (having a gender identity other than male or female). With such people, it's best to ask about what pronouns and gender-related language they prefer. Many of these individuals prefer gender-neutral pronouns like "they" and gender-neutral language like "spouse" and "sibling."
As for gender--never just assume a person is trans. If they present as female (or male), assume that's how they identify unless they let you know otherwise.
It's uncivil to compare LGBT people to rapists and child molesters.[color=green]arian[/color] wrote:This was NOT to open the door for active thieves, murderers, adulterers, homosexuals, rapists, child molesters to 'love' their neighbor the way they want to interpret it.
? Haven (she/her) ?
? Kindness is the greatest adventure ?
? Kindness is the greatest adventure ?
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Post #299
[Replying to post 294 by arian]
Moderator Warning
This kind of sarcasm is not civil; neither is your blanket comparison of law abiding groups to 'rapists and murderers.'
Please review our Rules.
______________
Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

This kind of sarcasm is not civil; neither is your blanket comparison of law abiding groups to 'rapists and murderers.'
Please review our Rules.
______________
Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.
Re: Christian Reasons to Support Gay Rights
Post #300Thank you for 'clearing that up' for us, only it's anything but 'clear'?Haven wrote:That's incorrect about transgender people. Many do identify as male or female, they just feel that their internal gender identity doesn't match their external sex. For example, there are:[color=red]arian[/color] wrote: Woe, .. who you calling 'brother and sister'? What if I am a woman trapped inside a mans body ey? Do you know how deeply wounding your reference to me as a brother would be? I would not have you call me a sister in Christ either, for what if I am a man trapped inside a woman's body ey? Just call me "Genderless in Christ" or I will haul you before a genderless judge for breaking the law. NO MORE this Brothers and sisters stuff, aren't we one in Christ?
Is there male of female in Heaven? Huh, .. is there?
It's the law now, so you better watch what gender you attribute to people. And no more words like 'mother or father either'!
1) Male to female people (women assigned male at birth, they would be referred to with she/her/hers pronouns, "sister," "wife," etc.
2) Female to male people (men assigned female at birth, they would be referred to with he/him/his pronouns, "brother," "husband," etc.).
There are also some transgender people who do identify as genderless (having no gender identity) or genderqueer (having a gender identity other than male or female). With such people, it's best to ask about what pronouns and gender-related language they prefer. Many of these individuals prefer gender-neutral pronouns like "they" and gender-neutral language like "spouse" and "sibling."
As for gender--never just assume a person is trans. If they present as female (or male), assume that's how they identify unless they let you know otherwise.
So just how many mistakes do you think doctors make at birth (assign wrong genders to babies)?
What would you think would be the 'proper' way of assigning genders to babies at birth? It sounds like we should leave it open, as a 'choice' when the child becomes sure which gender it wants to assume, let it fill in that; gender: _______ gap?
[/quote]Haven wrote:It's uncivil to compare LGBT people to rapists and child molesters.[color=green]arian[/color] wrote:This was NOT to open the door for active thieves, murderers, adulterers, homosexuals, rapists, child molesters to 'love' their neighbor the way they want to interpret it..
I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that 'active thieves, murderers, adulterers, homosexuals, rapists, child molesters' all come under that same LGBT heading?
So then legalizing all sin IS the reason this law passed, `I was thinking this just leads in that direction', not that now all sin, (you know, what the bronze Aged Bible listed as sin: thieves, murderers, adulterers, homosexuality etc.) is labeled as LGBT!?
So it is no longer correct to refer to thieves and murderers as thieves and murderers? We are to 'ask' what they prefer to be labeled as?
Boy, talk about the changing of books, .. all those "falsely labeled" prisoners, .. and for all them years too!
Judge: "You were arrested for breaking and entering, what charge would you 'prefer' to be listed under?"

There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root.
Henry D. Thoreau
to one who is striking at the root.
Henry D. Thoreau