The Meaning of Life

For the love of the pursuit of knowledge

Moderator: Moderators

Aldarron
Student
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 8:07 am

Re: If all you knew about Jesus

Post #1

Post by Aldarron »

Volbrigade wrote:
......

Here's how I see it:

If God doesn't exist, then if your life is to have meaning, you have to manufacture it.

........

So.

Here are the courses of action available to you.

You can accept what I've just written; and that there is, and can be, no real meaning or purpose to life, and try to make the best of it -- it'll be over in a few decades anyway, what's the diff? Or you can make the "worst" of it, and become one of those sociopathic monsters whose only goal is to experience maximum pleasure -- or just maximum, period -- everything and everybody else be damned. Or just say "screw it", and put a pistol in your mouth --

Or you can become a mystic, and say "there is a meaning and purpose, we just don't know what or why or how it is (yet)..."

Or you can be so vague and sentimental and provincial in your outlook that you just sort of make up your own little "meaning and purpose", so to speak. But mainly, just try to stay busy enough that it's not an issue. Which is very easy to do. And, like the first choice -- it'll all be over in a few decades, anyway. And you begin to realize, as you accumulate them -- those decades start to fly, after the first 2 or 3... ;)

Choice #3 is a very prevalent, and popular one. So is choice #2. #1, I submit, is a little stark for most peoples's taste: and tends to produce either monsters or suicides.

Now, if I may, I would like to present an alternate view:

If Christianity is true, then the universe is the product of the creative act of an eternal, uncreated Mind-force and Intelligence, that is the wellspring of all existence.

That Mind-force -- known to the ancient Hebrews as YHWH, and to us as "God" -- exists outside of our time domain; is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent; and expresses His infinite intelligence and artistry in the stunningly beautiful and orchestrated universe He invented -- including the biosphere of one privileged planet, which he fashioned as an environment for the one creature He made "in His image" -- the only creature that has free will. Man.

Since He is the Creator of our dimensional reality, He makes the rules. And if He says He is "good", then He's "good". And whatever He calls "good" is "good"; and what He calls "bad" is "bad". No matter what we think about those judgments.

We'd have a real problem then, if He called injustice and deceit and treachery and lying and murder "good"; and sex and ice cream and the love of a mother for her children "bad". Because then our Creator would be a cosmic fiend.

But He's not.

In fact, He demonstrated to us what "good" is, in terms we can understand, by becoming one of us, and living a life of perfect "goodness". A life that was recorded, and the account of which has spread to all nations, in all languages.

So we know He is "good".

And we know that He has gifted us with many "good" things. such as a measure of intelligence, in the "image" of the intelligence that He has. We have used that intelligence to produce science and technology.

And because of that, we now understand that we live in a limited, bounded, temporary dimensional environment -- which is precisely what God has been telling us in His message system to us, for 4000 years.

And we know, from that message system, that once we leave this 4D, temporal dimensionality, we can enter into His eternal one, which is unbounded spatially, and outside of time.

And that we will be adopted joint heirs with His Son, Jesus Christ, and share the same manner and mode and quality of existence that He has.

And while we don't know what that fully entails, from our side of the divide between the temporary and the eternal --

We know it's "good". Really, really good. Beyond our imagining good. Beyond ANYTHING we know of in this present world good.

Therefore, my friend -- the meaning and purpose in acquiring that mode of existence is an eternality of GOOD.

The meaning and purpose of existence in a godless, random universe is nothing.

It follows that the meaning and purpose that an infinite (Christian) life has, that a finite (atheist) one doesn't?

Is total.

It is EVERYTHING.

I believe that is the reality, and the choice, that each of us is faced with.
Every once in a while I see this sort of thing and I'm really baffled. Exactly where in the Bible or anywhere else does it say a persons life is supposed to have meaning?

Where's that commandment? Prior to western individualism and "snowflake syndrome", no one even thought to ask such a randomly silly question - silly because it elevates individualism to a cultic level of importance.

Take note that, as is often the case, the above question conflates purpose with meaning.

The purpose of any life is obvious, and that is to perpetuate itself; to create and raise children or to contribute to the raising of children, preferably with shared genetics.

Having children and perpetuating the species is a perfectly good purpose. I like life. Being alive is wonderful, and passing the gift of life to a child is a very fine purpose, it seems to me.

So purpose is covered, but what about the meaning of life? Well, meaning is entirely subjective by definition, and each must answer that according to their own dictates.

However, why is it all necessary to "feel" your life has meaning or "feel" it is important for the universe to care that a kiss is different from a kill. Why?

Where is it written that a personal meaning should matter, or be important?

Nobody needs validation from invisible spiritual forces for their own subjective experience of meaning, satisfaction, or morality in life. It is irrelevant and simply wrong to place some hyped up importance on "meaning" in life.

Certainly meaning and purpose can be individualized, but they are always nevertheless understood and experienced within the culture and society in which the person lives. There is no need or reason or sense in looking beyond our own culture and our own social circles to contextualize such things. Nor is their any reason to think it is particularly important for an individual to feel that their life is personally meaningful or to even care or worry about it at all.

Volbrigade
Banned
Banned
Posts: 689
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:54 pm

Post #31

Post by Volbrigade »

Danmark wrote:
Volbrigade wrote:
Danmark:
There is a psychological tendency to read purpose into the universe, but no evidence for it.
Thank you, Dan, for confirming what I've been saying is the inescapable conclusion of atheism.
Thank you Vol, for agreeing there is no evidence for finding 'purpose' in the universe.
And that is scarcely odd because, there isn't any.
Non theists look for truth, even if they might prefer to find something else.
Theists look for evidence of what is not there.
There is no meaning or purpose in what you wrote here, Dan. 8-)

User avatar
Danmark
Site Supporter
Posts: 12697
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:58 am
Location: Seattle

Post #32

Post by Danmark »

Divine Insight wrote: [Replying to post 25 by Volbrigade]

Volbrigade,

You don't seem to realize that if the Crucifixion of Christ was "God's Plan" in a drama that God had written before the beginning of time then the Pharisees, Pontius Pilate, the Roman Soliders who crucified Christ, and even Judas would all necessarily be in Heaven right now receiving their Oscar Awards for "Best Actors" in this play.

If the crucifixion of Christ was "God's Plan" then everyone who contributed to it would have been doing the Will of God precisely as God had hoped they would play out their roles.

In fact, if this was God's Plan, then surely all of these characters were nothing more than puppets on strings doing precisely the will of God.
:D If the crucifiction of Christ was 'God's Plan' before the beginning of time, then it was a pretty poor and unnecessary plan, full of unnecessary drama, torture, mistake and evil. I expect much better of a 'God.'

User avatar
dianaiad
Site Supporter
Posts: 10220
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:30 pm
Location: Southern California

Post #33

Post by dianaiad »

Volbrigade wrote:
Danmark wrote:
Volbrigade wrote:
Danmark:
There is a psychological tendency to read purpose into the universe, but no evidence for it.
Thank you, Dan, for confirming what I've been saying is the inescapable conclusion of atheism.
Thank you Vol, for agreeing there is no evidence for finding 'purpose' in the universe.
And that is scarcely odd because, there isn't any.
Non theists look for truth, even if they might prefer to find something else.
Theists look for evidence of what is not there.
There is no meaning or purpose in what you wrote here, Dan. 8-)
Moderator Comment

One line comments such as this do not add to the conversation. If you disagree with a post, please expand your thoughts and explain why.
Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

Volbrigade
Banned
Banned
Posts: 689
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 6:54 pm

Post #34

Post by Volbrigade »

dianaiad wrote:
Volbrigade wrote:
Danmark wrote:
Volbrigade wrote:
Danmark:
There is a psychological tendency to read purpose into the universe, but no evidence for it.
Thank you, Dan, for confirming what I've been saying is the inescapable conclusion of atheism.
Thank you Vol, for agreeing there is no evidence for finding 'purpose' in the universe.
And that is scarcely odd because, there isn't any.
Non theists look for truth, even if they might prefer to find something else.
Theists look for evidence of what is not there.
There is no meaning or purpose in what you wrote here, Dan. 8-)
Moderator Comment

One line comments such as this do not add to the conversation. If you disagree with a post, please expand your thoughts and explain why.
Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.
All due respect, diana -- that's a good rule. But like all rules...

What has happened here is that in a long-ranging conversation, that has spawned its own thread, in which I have been arguing pretty much solo against several posters with adversarial positions, Danmark inadvertently (it is assumed) opened himself up to an irresistible one-line coup de grace.

If there is no meaning or purpose...

well... it follows that...

>snick<

One flick of the wrist; the line by which Dan's reasoning hangs is cut; and he falls screaming into the void.

I thought that was evident from my response.

Too subtle?

8-)

User avatar
Danmark
Site Supporter
Posts: 12697
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:58 am
Location: Seattle

Post #35

Post by Danmark »

Volbrigade wrote: What has happened here is that in a long-ranging conversation, that has spawned its own thread, in which I have been arguing pretty much solo against several posters with adversarial positions, Danmark inadvertently (it is assumed) opened himself up to an irresistible one-line coup de grace.

If there is no meaning or purpose...

well... it follows that...

>snick<

One flick of the wrist; the line by which Dan's reasoning hangs is cut; and he falls screaming into the void.

I thought that was evident from my response.

Too subtle?
Subtle? Only if by 'subtle' you mean non existent. Even with your additional explanation, your meaning is less than unclear. There is no meaning or purpose in the universe except what man decides to give it. The universe just is. It is only man who observes it and quite arbitrarily decides it must have meaning. To claim the universe has purpose or meaning is to claim a god with a personality exists and created it for some purpose. Saying there is a god so there must be meaning apart from what men give it begs the question.

Elijah John
Savant
Posts: 12226
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
Location: New England
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 12 times

Post #36

Post by Elijah John »

Volbrigade wrote:
dianaiad wrote:
Volbrigade wrote:
Danmark wrote:
Volbrigade wrote:
Danmark:
There is a psychological tendency to read purpose into the universe, but no evidence for it.
Thank you, Dan, for confirming what I've been saying is the inescapable conclusion of atheism.
Thank you Vol, for agreeing there is no evidence for finding 'purpose' in the universe.
And that is scarcely odd because, there isn't any.
Non theists look for truth, even if they might prefer to find something else.
Theists look for evidence of what is not there.
There is no meaning or purpose in what you wrote here, Dan. 8-)
Moderator Comment

One line comments such as this do not add to the conversation. If you disagree with a post, please expand your thoughts and explain why.
Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.
All due respect, diana -- that's a good rule. But like all rules...

What has happened here is that in a long-ranging conversation, that has spawned its own thread, in which I have been arguing pretty much solo against several posters with adversarial positions, Danmark inadvertently (it is assumed) opened himself up to an irresistible one-line coup de grace.

If there is no meaning or purpose...

well... it follows that...

>snick<

One flick of the wrist; the line by which Dan's reasoning hangs is cut; and he falls screaming into the void.

I thought that was evident from my response.

Too subtle?

8-)
:warning: Moderator Warning


You've been here long enough, you should know better than to challenge moderator actions here on the boards. Reminder, PM is the place for that.


Please review our Rules.

______________

Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

Bust Nak
Savant
Posts: 8913
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:03 am
Location: Planet Earth
Has thanked: 24 times
Been thanked: 18 times

Post #37

Post by Bust Nak »

Volbrigade wrote: that is perhaps the most brilliant argument I have ever encountered.

Just reverse the initial premise to "There is a God"-- and no truer words were ever spoken.
Don't you see you've just acknowledging that the argument is question begging? Your conclusion is the same as your initial premise.

1) There is a God.
2) God can infused the universe with meaning.
3) The universe is infused with meaning.
4) Therefore God exist.

User avatar
ttruscott
Site Supporter
Posts: 11067
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:09 pm
Location: West Coast of Canada

Post #38

Post by ttruscott »

Danmark wrote: If the crucifiction of Christ was 'God's Plan' before the beginning of time, then it was a pretty poor and unnecessary plan, full of unnecessary drama, torture, mistake and evil. I expect much better of a 'God.'
The plan included GOD in a loving unity called marriage with HIS creation. Only by the free will acceptance of HIS proposal of marriage can a loving marriage be created. For a person to have a full free will, uncoerced or constrained from any option in the choice, then the option to choose to reject the marriage has to be available or we are not free willed.

It was by this mis-use of their free will to reject YHWH as their God and to reject HIS promises of salvation from any future sin which made them eternally sinful, unable to cure themselves and unwilling to ever accept HIS help that created the unnecessary drama, torture, mistake and evil you complain about, not HIS plan at all but a perversion of it.

HIS hope was that everyone would choose to accept HIS deity and HIS offer of salvation for any sin we might do and to finish in heaven in marriage with HIM. HIS understanding that some might reject HIM and heaven and bring evil into HIS creation, necessitated His decision to offer himself as a sacrifice for the redemption of His sinful elect. FEW Christians have conceived of HIS plan for our creation as fulfilled by HIS sovereign control over ever thought we have and act we do though it is a favourite straw-man to beat on, eh? Since free will puts GOD at arm's length from the creation of evil it is to be judiciously ignored in favour or the false but emotional idea the GOD creates and is therefore guilty for evil.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

User avatar
Danmark
Site Supporter
Posts: 12697
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:58 am
Location: Seattle

Post #39

Post by Danmark »

[Replying to post 38 by ttruscott]

Ted, I think we all know your position on your theology. What you believe is not the question. The question in this thread is whether or not life has meaning and if the Bible agrees or state's that life has a meaning. If life has a meaning, where does it come from, what is it, and how do you know?

Simply restating your personal belief about god does not answer, or even address the question.

Post Reply