IS WITCHCRAFT GOOD OR EVIL?

[acehighinfinity]

[Replying to post 106 by Divine Insight]
DIVINE INSIGHT:

Moreover, I find the verse that you have posted to be quite interesting and I use it frequently to defend my witchcraft against Christian criticism. The Christians often claim that witches get their power from Satan (just as Jesus had been accused of in the verse you've quoted).

However, like Jesus I use my powers for good works. Therefore, for the very same reasons that Jesus gave my powers cannot come from Beelzebub (or Satan) because a house divided against itself cannot stand.

Therefore my powers necessarily must come from God, for precisely the same reasons that Jesus gave.

If what Jesus spoke is truth, then clearly it must also apply to me. I cannot do good works in the name of Beelzebub, demons, or Satan because that would be a house divided against itself.

So I find it rather humorous that Jesus himself has totally vindicated all witches who do good works. Because their power (according to Jesus) can only come from God. Only God's power can be used for good works.

I would like to invite you here DIVINE INSIGHT
The above post caught my attention and I would like to bring this to the light. Now in another thread I am under the impression you study Buddhism but claim not to be a Buddhist, correct?

I am totally against WitchCraft according to the Holy Bible:
Deuteronomy 18:14 "The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord your God has not permitted you to do so."
Revelation 22:15 "Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
Leviticus 19:26 "Do not practice divination or seek omens"
...the list goes on.

Questions:
If Divine Insight claim to use WitchCraft for good, then could you or anyone else list those examples please?
Does one see WitchCraft as Good? or
Does one see WitchCraft as Evil?

Feel free to add on.

Thanks in advance,
Ace

[bluethread]

For one thing when discussing the Bible we can't even be sure if there even was a "Jesus"

Well if that is the case, why are you claiming to know what he validated?

I'm not.

All I have ever claimed is that if the excuse Jesus used is valid for him then it must necessarily be valid for everyone who does good works.

Jesus could be a totally fictitious character who never existed. That wouldn't change my argument one iota.

However, the usage of the term in the source document would be relevant with regard to it's veracity. The terms translated as "good", "evil" and "witchcraft" in the Scriptures are not the same as the humanist concepts of "good", "evil" and "witchcraft". The humanist concepts relate to what is preferable to a specific human or group of humans. The terms in the Scriptures refer to what is acceptable to Adonai, for Adonai's people. If one is using the Scriptures as a justification for one's arguments, it behooves that one to acknowledge that cultural context.

[Divine Insight]

For one thing when discussing the Bible we can't even be sure if there even was a "Jesus"

Well if that is the case, why are you claiming to know what he validated?

I'm not.

All I have ever claimed is that if the excuse Jesus used is valid for him then it must necessarily be valid for everyone who does good works.

Jesus could be a totally fictitious character who never existed. That wouldn't change my argument one iota.

However, the usage of the term in the source document would be relevant with regard to it's veracity. The terms translated as "good", "evil" and "witchcraft" in the Scriptures are not the same as the humanist concepts of "good", "evil" and "witchcraft". The humanist concepts relate to what is preferable to a specific human or group of humans. The terms in the Scriptures refer to what is acceptable to Adonai, for Adonai's people. If one is using the Scriptures as a justification for one's arguments, it behooves that one to acknowledge that cultural context.

If that's the case, then Jesus' defense was rather silly wasn't it?

How could those who are accusing him of using the powers of Satan have a clue whether he is doing good works or not?

Jesus' only hope that his defense would work is if they agree that the works he had done are "good".

And this brings up an interesting point as well. Even the Gospels have Jesus cursing a fig tree with an evil spell because he was ticked off that it didn't have any fruit on it when he wanted a fig. Was that "good works"?

Also, if a Wiccan witch casts a spell on a child molesting Catholic Priest and causes him to wither up and die on the spot, should that be consider to have been "evil works" or "good works"?

Actually based on your analysis here Wiccan Witches could go around casting what appear to you to be "evil spells" on all manner of people, all the while they are actually doing "GOOD WORKS" in the eyes of God.



So those people who claim that they have actually seen Wiccan Witches casting evil spells could be totally mistaken. They simply aren't privy enough to understand that what they thought was an "evil spell" was actually "GOOD WORKS", just like Jesus cursing the fig tree.

Although, I'm not sure how cursing a fig tree could be seen by anyone to be "Good Works". Do fig trees actually have free will and sinfully refuse to produce fruit when Jesus wants a snack?

The cursing of a fig tree seems absurd to me. But then again, the fact that it comes from Hebrew folklore that no surprise.

In any case, you have just told us that we can't even judge the actions of Wiccan Witches. For all we know they are always doing "GOOD WORKS" even if it doesn't appear to us that the works they are doing are good.

Thanks for the heads-up.

[bluethread]

However, the usage of the term in the source document would be relevant with regard to it's veracity. The terms translated as "good", "evil" and "witchcraft" in the Scriptures are not the same as the humanist concepts of "good", "evil" and "witchcraft". The humanist concepts relate to what is preferable to a specific human or group of humans. The terms in the Scriptures refer to what is acceptable to Adonai, for Adonai's people. If one is using the Scriptures as a justification for one's arguments, it behooves that one to acknowledge that cultural context.

If that's the case, then Jesus' defense was rather silly wasn't it?

How could those who are accusing him of using the powers of Satan have a clue whether he is doing good works or not?

Jesus' only hope that his defense would work is if they agree that the works he had done are "good".

The usage of the term "good"(tov) in HaTorah is in accordance with Adonai's ways. They know whether or not he is doing good works by the standard of HaTorah. Do they work AND are they in accordance with HaTorah. They were judging His works, not by HaTorah, but by their rabbinics. It was not up to Him to prove His works were in accordance with HaTorah. It was up to them to prove that they were not.

And this brings up an interesting point as well. Even the Gospels have Jesus cursing a fig tree with an evil spell because he was ticked off that it didn't have any fruit on it when he wanted a fig. Was that "good works"?

How was this evil?

Also, if a Wiccan witch casts a spell on a child molesting Catholic Priest and causes him to wither up and die on the spot, should that be consider to have been "evil works" or "good works"?

The humanist might find that a "good" work, but it is not tov. It is ra'. It is a beneficial work done by the means of the nations.

Actually based on your analysis here Wiccan Witches could go around casting what appear to you to be "evil spells" on all manner of people, all the while they are actually doing "GOOD WORKS" in the eyes of God.

No, they are doing the spells of ra'(evil) and not tov(good), even though they are beneficial. Good is the best fit Anglo-Saxon term for tov. Something can not be tov, unless it is according to Adonai's ways. Evil is the best fit Anglo-saxon term for ra'., the ways of the nations.

So those people who claim that they have actually seen Wiccan Witches casting evil spells could be totally mistaken. They simply aren't privy enough to understand that what they thought was an "evil spell" was actually "GOOD WORKS", just like Jesus cursing the fig tree.

No, even though they might be wrong in their reasoning, biblically they are correct, because wiccans, as far as I know, do not follow Torah.

Although, I'm not sure how cursing a fig tree could be seen by anyone to be "Good Works". Do fig trees actually have free will and sinfully refuse to produce fruit when Jesus wants a snack?

The cursing of a fig tree seems absurd to me. But then again, the fact that it comes from Hebrew folklore that no surprise.

Did anyone say it was a "good" work? It need not be ra' or tov. It could just be an object lesson.

In any case, you have just told us that we can't even judge the actions of Wiccan Witches. For all we know they are always doing "GOOD WORKS" even if it doesn't appear to us that the works they are doing are good.

No, I said that the usage of a term in the source document is key to the proper understanding of the term. In this case, the Hebrew terms are tov and ra', which are associated with HaTorah and the ways of the nations, not merely the beneficial outcome of the act.

[Divine Insight]

Adonai's ways

But who are you to say what "Adonai's ways" are?

For all you know Wiccans are Adonai's Angels doing Adonai's work.

You are in no position to say otherwise.

I really see no reason why people from one religion should always be trying to condemn everyone else in the name of their jealous God.

I'm sure the Wiccans don't condemn you for worshiping a jealous God. Why your religion needs to condemn everyone else is beyond me. I guess it's just the core of the beliefs your religion is founded upon. Not much you can do about it.

In any case, the Wiccans I know call upon the power of the Creator of the Universe, so unless you are claiming that your Adonai is not the creator of the universe, you really have no choice but to acknowledge that they call upon the same God you claim to worship.

[JehovahsWitness]

For one thing when discussing the Bible we can't even be sure if there even was a "Jesus"

Well if that is the case, why are you claiming to know what he validated?

I'm not
.

Oh but you are. True, you used the word "validated" but it comes to the same thing, a claim that you know what Jesus officially sanctioned. Your exact words are posted below:

All I have claimed is that "Good Witches" have been vindicated by Jesus.

JW

[bluethread]

Adonai's ways

But who are you to say what "Adonai's ways" are?

For all you know Wiccans are Adonai's Angels doing Adonai's work.

You're the one who used Yeshua(Jesus) as an example. If you are going to do that, you need to look at what Yeshua was referring to.

You are in no position to say otherwise.

I really see no reason why people from one religion should always be trying to condemn everyone else in the name of their jealous God.

I'm sure the Wiccans don't condemn you for worshiping a jealous God. Why your religion needs to condemn everyone else is beyond me. I guess it's just the core of the beliefs your religion is founded upon. Not much you can do about it.

Well, if it didn't indicate what are and are not acceptable behaviors, it would not be a religion. Whether Wiccans condemn me is not of much concern to me, unless that condemnation leads to harmful actions.

In any case, the Wiccans I know call upon the power of the Creator of the Universe, so unless you are claiming that your Adonai is not the creator of the universe, you really have no choice but to acknowledge that they call upon the same God you claim to worship.

If I say that all my views come from divine insight, does that mean that they come from you?

[Divine Insight]

For one thing when discussing the Bible we can't even be sure if there even was a "Jesus"

Well if that is the case, why are you claiming to know what he validated?

I'm not
.

Oh but you are. True, you used the word "validated" but it comes to the same thing, a claim that you know what Jesus officially sanctioned. Your exact words are posted below:

All I have claimed is that "Good Witches" have been vindicated by Jesus.

JW

It wasn't that Jesus vindicated "good witches", it's that his own defensive argument vindicates them whether he intended to or not.

And besides, if you then claim that Jesus claims elsewhere there are no "good witches" that's fine. That's totally irrelevant.

I never claimed that Jesus' defense vindicated "evil witches".

So if you want to go with that, then all you can claim now is that there are no such thing as "Wiccans". And that's fine. The Wiccans don't need your recognition.

[Sammaiel]

It depends from the universe we are talking about.

In "Lord of the Rings" world there are good and evil wizards.
In the Chick Tracts world , magic is inherently evil
In "Call of Cthulhu", magic is inherently insane.


Anyway, most if not all christian doctrines would agree that witchcraft is an evil product of the devil.