Why won't God convince atheists?

[Hatuey]

Many atheists are so for valid and defendable reasons. Why would a punishing deity choose not to make himself known to reasonable people who do not believe he exists?

A decent god would know how to convince decent people to believe and care for him as he cared for those decent people.

What sort of god doesn't care to convince sensible people that he exists?

[JLB32168]

Hi, everything already existed: There is no need for a god to create it.

I understand your belief. I dont subscribe to it but I understand it.

You have no basis for God creating the Universe.

Hmmmm.

A book says he did. People allege to have spoken with him and he allegedly confirmed the story from the book; therefore, Ive concluded that there is a basis and until someone proves that the witnesses had psychotic breaks and/or were under the influence of bad cases of indigestion I dont plan on changing that opinion.

[Willum]

[Replying to JLB32168]

Several books pre-existing that one claim other stories. The people who wrote those books that the book you refer to copied, said those stories weren't real.

"I" am not believing. We are observing. We are observing matter and energy are truly immortal, observationally immortal, and God is only hypothetically immortal, and hypothetically extant.

What you believe in has no raison d'etre. It doesn't explain anything.

Do you have any proof God created anything before Genesis? Now that we know the Universe is bigger and older than the our Solar system, it's a valid question.

[catnip]

[Replying to JLB32168]

Several books pre-existing that one claim other stories. The people who wrote those books that the book you refer to copied, said those stories weren't real.

"I" am not believing. We are observing. We are observing matter and energy are truly immortal, observationally immortal, and God is only hypothetically immortal, and hypothetically extant.

What you believe in has no raison d'etre. It doesn't explain anything.

Do you have any proof God created anything before Genesis? Now that we know the Universe is bigger and older than the our Solar system, it's a valid question.

Unfortunately, you are right. There was no real argument, was there? No perception whatsoever of anything other than an ancient written text. And yet, if God IS real and if God did create the Universe, then a believer should actually be seeking that knowledge.

Has no one since those ancient days had that perception? Even though I am not a creationist, I see the Big Bang theory in Genesis in the creation of the world. But not only do I have the perception of God in all things, there are the many mystics over the centuries who also understood what I have. I think of Julian of Norwich and her vision of the thing much like a hazelnut and God made it and loves it.

I think JLB, if he would stop to think can point to others--many others in the Orthodox tradition who have in their own experience seen the confirmation of eternal God and his creation. I realize that this is a challenge for him. I can readily see that claiming what is written in scripture is thoroughly debunked in the minds of atheists. So what is God and how great is God and where is God, JLB?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 655 by catnip]

...If God always existed then there is no need for Him to be created " contrasted with the skeptic/atheist argument that If God created everything, then who or what caused God since it makes no sense that God could create but be uncreated.

1. If things always existed, they were NOT created.
2. If God always existed, it was NOT created.
3. Do we know if things or God always existed?
4. I say NO, we don't know anything of the sort.
5. So, what does premise 1 and 2 demonstrate? ... Nothing at all except that they could not have been created. One ( 1 ) presupposes things, the other, ( 2 ) things AND a creator god.

Conclusion:

6. Therefore, it's more parsimonious to believe premise 1 than premise 2 as premise 2 requires MORE belief than premise 1.

There is a great deal we don't know about the Universe. And there is a great deal we have learned already but we are still working on it.

Agree on both counts. I guess you are agreeing with my premise 3 and 4 above. Do we know if things or gods have always existed? ... No, we don't.

Certainly things have been created because they do exist.

You are wrong to introduce the misleading term "created" above, as it needlessly implies a "creator".

We can agree that things do in fact, exist, that doesn't IMPLY a "creation".
We have no evidence of a CREATION or a "creator". We have evidence that most things that happen are CAUSED in our universe and no evidence for a god or a creator. You might want to demonstrate that a god or a creator exists, but it's not at all convincing to presuppose the conclusion of what we want to prove in an argument.

Even if we speak of the Universe, we have evidence of the creation of suns (stars), of planets, of galaxies.

Oh, by "creation" you mean "causation". Yes, we know that planets and suns were caused. Being caused does NOT imply a creator. You know the old saying " Creation implies a creator".

We don't want to be begging the question that a creator exists in order to prove that a creator exists, do we?

The question is: When did it all begin?

Just before the Big Bang is the best theory we have.

When it all ends, will there be nothing left?

No, that's not how the scientists think it will "all end". The universe will continue to expand to such a point that no life will exist. Maybe that's what you think the end is. We have no evidence that the universe ( and all the matter in it ) won't continue to expand.

When?

If there is no end to the expansion, then there is no "when" and no real end. It will be the "end" of us for sure. But not the universe itself. At least, that's what I think cosmologists tell us.

"There is a growing consensus among cosmologists that the universe is flat and will continue to expand forever."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_ ... e_universe

It is like thinking that the world ends on the other side of the wall--that there is nothing out there. But there is. It is infinite and it is eternal, with no beginning and with no end--because there is always something beyond it.

What wall?

One of the ideas about the Big Bang is that it proves ( or theorizes ) a beginning to our universe. As to the end.. maybe none.

No, we don't know anything of the sort--but we have perceptions of something and we, some of us, call it God. Others may call it something else.

Oh, I suppose if all "God" means is a LABEL for the unknown... why not just call it THAT?

But what "perceptions" are you talking about?

Perceptions of what? Perceptions of mental concepts? What is it that you are PERCEIVING?.. because I don't think anyone is perceiving infinity or gods or causes for the universe.

I think that people DO in fact, perceive what they imagine. But there is no evidence that in the case of a creator god that there IS any perception apart from what they imagine.

From my atheist position, an unverified being who creates the universe and so on is a very elaborate and very popular fantasy that some people believe exists. Apologetics is in the business of presenting arguments to demonstrate that the god they believe in is NOT a fantasy, but a reality.

So, again, what are theists perceiving that proves that any god is a reality?

And what do you think of my argument ? It's a real one from a skeptic/atheist, after all. I'm sure it's riddled with errors. I'm looking forward to critique.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 658 by catnip]

Like Catnip!

Far greater minds than mine have tried and failed miserably to find a creator. All that is left is what is arguably personal delusions and hope. As we examine and discover more history, we find there are no more places for God to hide, except inconsistency buried in apologetic logic.

Logic is no longer sufficient when man has radio telescopes. When we find there is no observable need for creation. That mankind fails more with a religion than without.

Or, as I see it, a well explained Universe existing happily without a creator.

[OnceConvinced]

There are many atheists who DON'T believe that the universe appeared from nothing. I'm one such atheist.

Do you believe that matter and energy are eternal? If so, youre not alone. Not a few brilliant scientists feel the same way. If brilliant wo/men who are scientists and atheists believe that something can always have existed then it would seem that the idea that an uncreated, personal, entity isnt as outlandish as some suggest.

But it is.

With God you are trying to invoke the supernatural. With God you are trying to say there is an all knowing all powerful, magical being who conjures up things out of nothing with magic words like "let there be light"... that always existed. I think it's far more reasonable to say there are basic life giving elements in the universe that always existed, rather than this magical super being.

How is it a silly notion to believe that men make up religions to explain our existance? People have to make sense of it somehow and if they don't have science.

Again, I am an evolutionist. Evolution selects against things that arent beneficial to the propagation of the species. For what reason did religions arise and spread?
What evolutionary benefit did they accomplish?

I would have thought it would be obvious.

It was a way to control the masses, a way to answer the questions of the unknown, a way to deal with the problem of mortality. What better way to be in charge... threaten everyone with the wrath of God if they don't submit. What better way to explain away life's difficult questions? Say "Goddidit". What better way to deal with death than to conjure up fantasies of an afterlife?

One just needs to ask others, what are the benefits of religion? Many members of this site will give you a very long list.

I believe that all religions are the creations of supernatural entities " one of an uncreated deity and the others by that deitys enemies.

I don't see why anyone would believe that. Humans are creative and imaginative beings. If they see something they can't explain, they conjure up explanations for them. The fact that gods are so very human in their behaviour and emotions seem to suggest that men have created them

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 656 by JLB32168]

You have no basis for God creating the Universe.

Hmmmm.

A book says he did.

Do we believe something because it's in a book? I hope not!

People allege to have spoken with him and he allegedly confirmed the story from the book; therefore, Ive concluded that there is a basis and until someone proves that the witnesses had psychotic breaks and/or were under the influence of bad cases of indigestion I dont plan on changing that opinion.

Yes, people ALLEGE something ... should we believe them because they allege it?.. I hope not! Now, you say that you will believe whatever is in a book even if it's just allegations that you're reading about. The reason?

Because others can't prove that the "witnesses" weren't psychotic or not feeling well at the time.

What a stunningly bad reason.

[ttruscott]

Many atheists are so for valid and defendable reasons. Why would a punishing deity choose not to make himself known to reasonable people who do not believe he exists?

A decent god would know how to convince decent people to believe and care for him as he cared for those decent people.

What sort of god doesn't care to convince sensible people that he exists?

Being sensible has nothing to do with this topic... A sinful elect who decides atheism implies truth as he sees it will be brought back to the real truth of faith in Christ when the time comes. And a non-believer who is doing miracles in His Name will be sent away cursed when the time is ripe.

Who you are and your relationship with your GOD are the only criteria for salvation, not any particular belief at any particular time nor what good works you might be up to at any time.

[KenRU]

[Replying to post 642 by KenRU]

That is one explanation; which can be simplified: "they aren't being driven by reason". This goes both ways. The OP assumes atheists (or at least the ones he has in mind) are quite sensible. Of course! Everyone thinks they are being sensible about their deepest convictions, atheist or not.

In many cases (including those on this site and the atheists I do know), leaving one's faith was no small feat. In fact, for me, it required much self reflection and not a few college courses.

My point being, that for many, staying in one's faith out of habit or child indoctrination may very well be a less "sensible" decision than one who learns more and ultimately chooses to leave the faith they were brought up in.

So, to the OP and your point, which do you find more "sensible"? The masses who never question their faith and stay within it? Or those (in the non-believers camp) who do question it?

-all the best

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 663:

Being sensible has nothing to do with this topic...

Agreed. It ain't sensible to declare one knows the mind of a god they can't even show exists.

A sinful elect who decides atheism implies truth as he sees it will be brought back to the real truth of faith in Christ when the time comes. And a non-believer who is doing miracles in His Name will be sent away cursed when the time is ripe.

Such are the claims.

Can you so such will indeed be the case? How can we confirm you, ttruscott, know the mind of God?

Who you are and your relationship with your GOD are the only criteria for salvation, not any particular belief at any particular time nor what good works you might be up to at any time.

Considering my rejection of claims that can't be shown to be truth, if that's so upsetting to God, I don't reckon I wanna hang around him anyhow.

Conclusions?

Unsupported claims and threats don't make a "sensible" argument, they make an empty argument that threatens folks upon rejecting that empty argument.