Is Matthew 21:22 blatantly wrong?

[Justin108]

Matthew 21:22 - "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

[JLB32168]

It seems that the OP is attempting to assert that the writer was issuing a unqualified carte blanche for prayer requests and since some prayers are answered with No then the verse is a lie. Personally, I see no reason to infer that the writer wished to say that all prayer requests, w/o question, will be answered with a resounding Yes.

God, I wish to butcher my neighbors children to make soup to serve the poor and I believe you will allow it and reward me for my benevolence.

To suggest that the writer wished to convey this categorical approvable for everything simply makes no sense.

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to post 9 by Realworldjack]

So as we look at the whole passage we see the "you" refers to the disciples, and is not a promise to us.

Not the first time I've come across this. This means that since anything Jesus ever said or claimed was only ever directed at who he was speaking to, and NOT at future readers of the Bible, then...nothing Jesus says applies to you or me. There's no point to reading Jesus's sayings (or what are attributed to him).
Jesus saying love thy neighbour, turn the other cheek? Directed at, and only meant for, whomever he was speaking directly to, not meant for subsequent generations.

Want to revise your position?

Want to revise your position?

I would not! It really amazes me how unbelievers claim that everything in the Bible must apply to us, or it is false, but they do not do this with other writings. So why does this apply to the Bible?

I have used this analogy in the past. If I were to come home, and find a letter addressed to my wife which said, "anyone who shows up for work an hour early on Monday, will receive $100.00", do you think that this should, or would apply to me? In other words, should I arrive at my place of work, and expect to receive the same reward as those who work with my wife? Not at all, and why? Because it would not apply to me.

But lets change the analogy a bit. Lets say, I come home and find a letter addressed to my wife, and in this letter it says, "Wal-Mart" is having a big sale Monday, and the first 100 people to show up, will receive another 50 percent off of their entire purchase."

Now, this letter was addressed to my wife as well, but would I be correct to assume that this would apply to me, as well? The point is, most people have no problem determining those things that apply to them, as opposed to those things that would not apply to them, in any other writings, but when the Bible comes into the equation, all of the sudden, there is great difficulty?

At any rate, since you seem to be saying that "everything that Jesus said must apply to all Christians throughout all time" lets see if you really believe this. Luke Chapter 21 and verse 10 reads,

And He said to them, Behold, when you have entered the city, a man will meet you carrying a pitcher of water; follow him into the house which he enters.

Now, do you really believe all Christians should be "entering the city, and looking to meet a man carrying a pitcher of water; in order to follow him into the house he enters?" Or, do you correctly understand this to be directed to those Jesus was speaking to at the time, and would not apply to all.

Now the question becomes, why do you allow this passage NOT to apply to all Christians, and yet force others passages to apply to all Christians, when Jesus was clearly speaking to a select group?

Again, it is amazing!

[AdHoc]

Matthew 21:22 - "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
James 4:3 NIV

Also the verse applies the condition "if you believe". Christians believe that faith is required to receive God's miracles.

So no the verse is not "blatantly wrong" in the context of the Christian faith.

False in my case. Back when I was a Christian, I asked for things that were not selfish in the slightest. I never asked for money or anything like that. Note, this was back when I was a Christian, so I obviously believed.
So what do you have to say to that? My younger self fulfilled your two conditions (belief + unselfish request) and yet prayers went unanswered/unfulfilled.

I don't understand how a person could've been a Christian?

So you are saying you believed and became a Christian and then stopped believing and stopped being a Christian?

Either Christianity, as per the bible, exists or it is a delusion but it can't be both.

What I assume you are saying is that you were temporarily deluded into believing God existed. You don't actually believe you were transformed into a new creation through Christ right?

Either way I don't necessarily disagree with your assertion that many people think they have faith to believe but their prayers still aren't answered.

I will be brutally honest and admit that I have found myself in that camp.

I guess one question is what is faith? The bible says Jesus could see people's faith. How can you see faith?

Can anyone answer that question?

[AdHoc]

So no the verse is not "blatantly wrong" in the context of the Christian faith.

It is astonishing how far we go to avoid saying Scripture is wrong. Obviously if it is God's word, it isn't wrong. But we are certainly confronted with situations that seriously challenge the truth of the statement.

Fair enough, but if we're all honest with ourselves there are lots of people quick to accept apparent contradictions in the bible as iron clad without looking at the scripture critically to see if there are any other possibilities.

One that strikes me as sad is that of a little Ukrainian girl whose parents were murdered in their farmhouse. She ran upstairs and knelt down to pray for help. The murderer said he heard her praying but smashed her skull anyway. Some say that she "prayed the wrong prayer."

What father, asked for bread, gives his son a stone? Sometimes the obvious is the right answer.

I don't know the answer to this and I admit it's a major problem. I've made the choice to trust that God knows the answer to this.

Even Jesus prayed to not have to go to the cross but submitted to God's will.

[Justin108]

Matthew 21:22 - "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
James 4:3 NIV[/quote]
Then James stands in direct contradiction to Matthew

Matthew 21:22 - "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Also the verse applies the condition "if you believe". Christians believe that faith is required to receive God's miracles.

So not a single person in recorded history had enough faith when praying for his lost limbs to grow back?

[Justin108]

Personally, I see no reason to infer that the writer wished to say that all prayer requests, w/o question, will be answered with a resounding Yes.

Let me highlight the parts that would infer a resounding "Yes"

Matthew 21:22 - "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

What Matthew 21:22 does not say - "If you believe, you may receive many of what you ask for in prayer."

So going by what Matthew actually says, all prayers should receive a resounding yes as long as the condition of "belief" is met

God, I wish to butcher my neighbors children to make soup to serve the poor and I believe you will allow it and reward me for my benevolence.

To suggest that the writer wished to convey this categorical approvable for everything simply makes no sense.

Ok let's assume for a moment that Matthew had a hidden clause that excludes evil prayers... Are you suggesting that every prayer that has ever been unanswered is evil? What about the countless cases of parents who lost their children to cancer and spent days on end praying? What about the cases of missing persons whose loved ones prayed for their safe return only to find them dead in a ditch a few days later?

[psychdave]

Matthew 21:22 - "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

It is amazing how there are those who will extract a sentence out of the Bible, and claim it proves the Bible to be false.

This sentence you have extracted, actually comes right after Jesus had cursed a fig tree, which was said to have "withered immediately." It then goes on to say, "And when the disciples saw it, they marveled, saying, How did the fig tree wither away so soon?

At this point it says, "So Jesus answered and said to them." Now, who is "them"? It would be the disciples who are asking the question. Jesus goes on to say to them, "Assuredly, I say to you." Now who is the "you?" Again the "you" would be the disciples. What does He tell the disciples? " if you have faith and do not doubt." Who is the you? Again the disciples.

you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, Be removed and be cast into the sea, it will be done. 22 And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.

So as we look at the whole passage we see the "you" refers to the disciples, and is not a promise to us.

Doubtlessly, you will disagree with me, but as other posters have said, using a "get out" clause that this only refers to the disciples for any passage that simply is not true, is not a valid answer. Let's apply the same to ladies not speaking up in church or even homosexuality, it was clearly JUST written for those in that time??? And what about where two agree in something in prayer it will be done.... As per my earlier post, things just happen, you pray for 100 people, 1 or 2 may be healed. 100 atheists get sick, 1 or 2 might recover, same odds....

[Realworldjack]

Matthew 21:22 - "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

It is amazing how there are those who will extract a sentence out of the Bible, and claim it proves the Bible to be false.

This sentence you have extracted, actually comes right after Jesus had cursed a fig tree, which was said to have "withered immediately." It then goes on to say, "And when the disciples saw it, they marveled, saying, How did the fig tree wither away so soon?

At this point it says, "So Jesus answered and said to them." Now, who is "them"? It would be the disciples who are asking the question. Jesus goes on to say to them, "Assuredly, I say to you." Now who is the "you?" Again the "you" would be the disciples. What does He tell the disciples? " if you have faith and do not doubt." Who is the you? Again the disciples.

you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, Be removed and be cast into the sea, it will be done. 22 And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.

So as we look at the whole passage we see the "you" refers to the disciples, and is not a promise to us.

Doubtlessly, you will disagree with me, but as other posters have said, using a "get out" clause that this only refers to the disciples for any passage that simply is not true, is not a valid answer. Let's apply the same to ladies not speaking up in church or even homosexuality, it was clearly JUST written for those in that time??? And what about where two agree in something in prayer it will be done.... As per my earlier post, things just happen, you pray for 100 people, 1 or 2 may be healed. 100 atheists get sick, 1 or 2 might recover, same odds....

Again, all I can say is, it is truly amazing how you do not have this sort of trouble when it comes to other written material, but all of a sudden, since it involves the Bible, we no longer have the ability to determine when and if things apply to us? Sort of convenient, isn't it?

Doubtlessly, you will disagree with me, but as other posters have said, using a "get out" clause that this only refers to the disciples for any passage that simply is not true, is not a valid answer.

I never said, "it could be used for any passage", rather I was dealing with the passage the OP referred too, and went on to demonstrate, using logic and reason, who Jesus was talking too, and how what he was saying would only apply to them.

Of course this does not mean this applies to every passage, but it is not that difficult to determine who is being addressed, and what would apply to us, as opposed to what would not apply to us. At least it seems we do not have such difficulty with other written material, but when it comes to the Bible, somehow we lose the ability to determine this?

Well let us look at another example. In 2 Timothy 4:13 Paul says.

Bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas when you come"and the books, especially the parchments.

A few verses later Paul says,

Do your utmost to come before winter.

Now, does this apply to me? Should I be searching for Paul's cloak, books, and parchments, and hurry to get to him before winter? Well then, since we now agree that not everything written in Scripture would apply to us, maybe there is even more that would not apply to us, and all it takes is good old common sense in order to determine what would apply, as opposed to what would not apply, just as we have used to determine what Paul says here, would not apply.

It is not that difficult, but I guess when the objective is to simply cast doubt, then it may be conducive, to throw the common sense we would normally use, with any other written material, out the window?

[Saved75]

Matthew 21:22 - "If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

Also, Mk 11: 24, "What things soever ye desire, when you pray, BELIEVE that ye HAVE ALREADY received them, and ye SHALL HAVE them".

But what we pray for, has to be in the Bible, Because if you can find a scripture promise for it, Then you can have faith for it, [Faith comes by hearing], Or getting the revelation of what God's word says.

All the promises of God, are, YES & AMEN.

But Note, We have to believe that we HAVE already received what we desire, THEN we shall have it.

[Saved75]

Obviously the way religion works is the 99 that receive nothing are "forgotten" about and the one that receives is brought to the front of the church to testify...

Exactly.

Parents lose their children quite often due to disease, accidents, crimes, war, and many other things. For the most part these churches are conducting funeral services and consoling the parents of lost children.

Once in a while some child that came close to losing their life but recovered in some way survives. And those parents then move to the front of the church as a testimonial to the "Glory of God".

This is actually an insult to all the parents who's children had actually died.

Hey Mr. DI!! I hope you are well and enjoying your summer!

The Glory of God can be celebrated in life and death. His Glory isn't just for the here and now.

Getting what we want, and desiring what God wants for us, are two very different things.

You have overlooked, Mk 21: 22. "Whatever YOU ask"
And Mk 11: 24, "Whatever YOU desire", I don't see anything about what God wants, He sais it's what WE want.

However, We have to have scriptures for whatever we want, You can't ask God for your neighbours wife, Because you don't have scriptures for it.
You can't ask for ten BMWs and ten oil wells, Because you don't have scriptures for them. Plus that will be greed.

So, "Whatever we want", has to be in line with the scriptures, [Which covers a whole lot of blessings].