Created immortal (indestructable)?

[JehovahsWitness]

To my knowledge "immortality" is only spoken of as being a reward for certain faithful. What is the scriptural basis for saying "humans" were originally created immortal*?

- do you believe Satan is immortal?
- do you believe the wicked are immortal?

- do you believe God can destroy them (as in put an end to their existence) but will never choose to do this?

- do you believe God cannot (does not have the ability to) destroy them (put an end to their existence)?

Why?


*by immortal I mean basically "indestructable"

[ttruscott]

Any created being can be deleted. In fact God could simply will them out of existence.

Unproven premise.

I find this incredibly ironic. The site's resident promoter of PCE, who has long disregarded the concept of evidence when it comes to his own theology...says to another poster that their claim regarding God is an 'unproven premise'.

A baseless slander - I have never disregarded the concept of evidence for PCE or any theology or faith, I disregard the concept of PROOF.

I remind those who badger for proof that they do not provide it themselves when they make glittering generalities so why should a Christian care about it?

[ttruscott]

think. He has the same powers of God like omniscience and omnipresence.

Another pronouncement as an obvious truth that has not been proven so has no value to anyone.

[ttruscott]

It's up to the individual to decide what they want to believe. One must ask themselves if what I say makes sense. Do you believe that Satan is not omniscient and omnipresent? If so, where did he get his power from?

I do not believe you make sense since other explanations not dependant upon (satanic) pagan beliefs and accepting theology that is contrary to Christian theology is available.

With great commitment comes great power.
All Satanic power is under the allowance of GOD to the purpose to prove to HIS sinful elect that satan will do absolutely any and everything to keep people in their sins while GOD is doing absolutely everything in HIS power to save HIS elect from their sins.

As the first to rebel against the claims of YHWH to be our creator GOD, PCE contends Satan IS ALLOWED the greatest power of evil while Michael, Uriel, Raphael and Gabriel were the first to accept YHWH's claims and bow to HIM as their GOD and who never sinned or distrusted HIM ever, therefore gaining the greatest power for righteousness among the angels.

Satan has no power - he is allowed the power to be evil as the Book of Job proves.

[William]

It's up to the individual to decide what they want to believe. One must ask themselves if what I say makes sense. Do you believe that Satan is not omniscient and omnipresent? If so, where did he get his power from?

I do not believe you make sense since other explanations not dependant upon (satanic) pagan beliefs and accepting theology that is contrary to Christian theology is available.

With great commitment comes great power.
All Satanic power is under the allowance of GOD to the purpose to prove to HIS sinful elect that satan will do absolutely any and everything to keep people in their sins while GOD is doing absolutely everything in HIS power to save HIS elect from their sins.

As the first to rebel against the claims of YHWH to be our creator GOD, PCE contends Satan IS ALLOWED the greatest power of evil while Michael, Uriel, Raphael and Gabriel were the first to accept YHWH's claims and bow to HIM as their GOD and who never sinned or distrusted HIM ever, therefore gaining the greatest power for righteousness among the angels.

Satan has no power - he is allowed the power to be evil as the Book of Job proves.

I agree with your basic outlook on this, ttruscott.

I would say that the only difference we have would probably be in that the voice of the adversary is required while the true nature of GOD is sorted out by various players involved and that all in all these are like members of the same Family having a rather intense disagreement which required the addition of human beings in order to get a graphic illustration on their fundamental problem - working out the true nature of GOD.

But then, I think about all these players as obviously not KNOWING in the first place and thus the reason for all the theatrics.

Also it might be prudent to add that human beings are not speaprate from this Family and somehow unwitting instruments used to service the 'gods' and their disputes.

We are very much PART of that Family. WE choose to be part of the experiment to find out if the answer could be shown through said experiment.

There will be no losers in the end, otherwise well - we all lose really.

'Satan' wouldn't exist if indeed there wasn't a problem to begin with.

[Claire Evans]

God already knows as time on earth doesn't apply to Him. According to Einstein, the past, present and future are happening simultaneously. If Revelation has not happened yet, how could it be set in stone? It has happened in another dimension but we are only perceiving it later.

If Revelation has not happened yet, how could it be set in stone?

It can be "set in stone" because God has used his powers of foreknowledge and since Jehovah is Almighty whatever He wants to make happen, He will make happen.

To illustrate: your 9 year old wakes up on the day of a test and says he'said not going to school today. You check his temperature, you see he's not sick and you reply "You ARE going to school today and you will take that test." Is this because you as a parent currently live in a parrelle universe where the test has already happened or because you are the parent, he is the child and you have the power and the responsibility to make it happen?

In a similar way God can speak of future events with absolute certainty because if he decides to do something no one and nothing can stop Him (compare Isaiah 55:11)

Why do you keep comparing God to us mere mortal and inferior beings bound by this dimension and time? You say whatever God wants will happen. Therefore He wants the Anti-Christ to unleash hell on earth. Wonderful.

As for Isaiah, how do you know if this is even correct? However, remember people are human and the writers, particularly the OT, have their own agendas. We need to understand, for example, that the Tree of Life in the Genesis story is from the Kabbahlah which also has a Tree of Life. It's ancient Babylonian mysticism. The writers compiled the OT using the Hebrew documents J, E, P and D. The Jews were very much influenced by Babylon because of the exile. So don't assume works influenced by Babylon now make it the Word of God.

Please read this:

http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy ... ient-truth

[JehovahsWitness]

Why do you keep comparing God to us mere mortal and inferior beings bound by this dimension and time?

Because God Himself does. God does this often in scripture, for example in the book of Isaiah we read:

"For thus says the LORD, "... As one whom his mother comforts, so I will comfort you; And you will be comforted in Jerusalem"

There are countless examples in the bible of God comparing himself to humans. If it's good enough for God it's good enough for me.

[Claire Evans]

This world is out of control. God has no control over it. Satan does. He is the prince of this world. Imagine God saying, "Go ahead, Satan. Have your way and let the evil sacrifice babies you." God only has control over the lives of those who love Him.

So what are you suggesting.

A) YHWH is not the Creator of the universe, and all beings both seen and unseen?

B) That there *is* no supreme (ie unique) ruler of the universe but rather two co-eternal "gods" that had equal control until one of them was able to grapple control out of the hands of the other?

C) That Jehovah, despite being able to see that this was going to happen, took or was capable of taking no preventative measures and thus humanity found itself under the Prince of Darkness?

D) All of the above?

F) None of the above. Please explain.

A) God and Satan are co-creators. Religious dualism makes sense.

In religion, dualism means the belief in two supreme opposed powers or gods (good and evil), or sets of divine or demonic beings, that caused the world to exist.

Here is the atom analogy:

Neutral atoms can be turned into positively charged ions by removing one or more electrons

God is the positively charged ion when Satan's power has been disabled in a situation (removing one or more electrons).

Atoms that gain extra electrons become negatively charged.

The more sin people are responsible for, the more powerful Satan becomes (negatively charged).

It's a constant battle between good and evil like in a atom where it is constantly positively and negatively charged.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-diffe ... d-a-proton

B) Not control but defeat.

C) Yes.

I think the mistake you make is to always apply logic to God.

• I think the mistake you make is not applying enough logic to your reasoning. (See above)

Why hasn't God gotten rid of the Devil ?

This video doesn't address the most important issue. Why did God create Satan in the first place? And don't tell me it is selective knowledge that He has. If this was true and He realized who Satan was when Satan rebelled, why not destroy him on the spot before Satan could get in contact with humans?

[Claire Evans]

God putting the tree in the Garden of Evil is a form of temptation. Adam and Eve could not have sinned if that temptation wasn't there. Putting temptation in their way contradicts the Lord's prayer that says, "Lead us not into temptation..."

It was inevitable that Adam and Eve would take the fruit. The desire to do wrong is innate in us.

Okay so apart from implying God was unrighteous and unreasonable and that Genesis contradicts scripture, how does this relate to being omniscient ?

Not about omniscience but what motive God had for putting the fruit in the Garden of Eden and it was a selfish one.

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 117 by Claire Evans]

QUESTION Does the idea of being selective in the use of his powers negate God being "all knowing" in nature ?

Many believe that because God is all powerful he is obliged to exercise his use off all his powers at all times. This is far from the case. Indeed, note a dictionary definition of the word omniscient:

1: having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
2: possessed of universal or complete knowledge

Note it does not say "using" but "having" "possessed of". If one has something is he obliged to use it? If someone had all the money in the world, is he obliged to spend it? If someone has all cars that exists do you have to drive them. God's being "all knowing " (omniscient) is a description of his abilities, his nature; He is "all knowing" in the same way as He is "all powerful", ie there is nothing he cannot know or do, NOT that there is nothing he does not know or do. This essentially amounts to God's omniscience being inherent.


Note the dictionary explanation below:

An omnivore (all eating) such as a human, does not have to eat everything until he has eaten everything on earth, it means he CAN eat any type of food. An all knowing God can know everything it doesn't necessarily mean he has to chose to. Chosing not to no more stops him from being all knowing than turning down a steak dinner stops a man from being an omnivor.

If someone has the choice of being rich but chooses not to be, then he is not rich. If God has the choice of being omniscient but chooses not to be, then He is not omniscient.

OBJECTION But doesn't 1 John 3:20 say "If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything."

Given the Scriptures that indicate that God does learn how individuals will react and adjust accordjngly, there is no reason not to understand this passage as speaking in the relative (rather than in absolute) terms, ie he knows everything about our heart (our inner person, including motives, thoughts and our mental, emotional and spiritual make-up )


CONCLUSION There is nothing in the bibe that negates an inherent omniscient reading and much to support it.

I'm going to throw back at you a verse from the OT which you derive much of your beliefs on:

The eyes of the LORD are everywhere, keeping watch on the wicked and the good.

Proverbs 15:3

It doesn't say some of the time. It means He knows what we are doing at all times.

Psalm 139:4

Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all.

So God knows what someone will say before that person says it. It doesn't mean He only knows what choice someone would make once that person has vocalized that choice.

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 115 by Claire Evans]


[center]
Do god know or do he not know?.. that is the ungrammatical question.[/center]

You said God has the ability to know what the choices are in advance. Therefore it is possible that He could know what Satan would do but chose NOT to.

Well I could choose to jump off a bridge.
I either jump or I don't.

God knows something or he don't.
If GOD for any reason at all does NOT know something, ( lets say its way more fun for him to be surprised ) then it would quite silly to say that he DO.

( the very idea is as bad as my grammar )

Agreed. Saying God knows only some things even by choice, He is not omniscient.