Example of Creation or Design

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
rikuoamero
Under Probation
Posts: 6707
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:06 pm
Been thanked: 4 times

Example of Creation or Design

Post #1

Post by rikuoamero »

In the 'Ask a Group' subforum, the following question was posed to creationists and/or intelligent design advocates.
Creationists and proponents of Intelligent Design are often critical of the theory of evolution. But their criticism leaves their opponents with the feeling that they don't actually understand evolution.

Question for Creationists and proponents of Intelligent Design: can you explain what is meant by evolution?
User 2timothy316 has gotten into a discussion with me, and in one of his most recent responses to me, where he opined
Because creation/intelligent can be observed
I asked for an example
Where? When? Can you show me a creature being designed (not by humans) and show me the designer?
So the topic for discussion here is for 2timothy316 (or anyone really) to give examples of what they think is creation/intelligent design (not by humans, since what's the point of looking at examples from humans?) of lifeforms, and of the designer/creator.
Image

Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

2timothy316
Under Probation
Posts: 4298
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
Has thanked: 193 times
Been thanked: 494 times

Re: Example of Creation or Design

Post #81

Post by 2timothy316 »

Bust Nak wrote:
Right, mutations are random and evolution is not random. That's not so hard to understand is it?
Apparently there are issues with 'random'.
https://evolutionnews.org/2015/10/is_evolution_ra/

"Evolutionists often challenge us for referring to Darwinian evolution as random. They point to the fact that natural selection, the force that supposedly drives the train, always selects more fit organisms, and so is not random. That is only part of the story, though, and to understand why evolution can indeed be called random, the rest needs to be told. "

Are these people wrong? Are you saying there is some 'force that drives the evolution train'? (their words not mine)

Bust Nak
Savant
Posts: 9874
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:03 am
Location: Planet Earth
Has thanked: 189 times
Been thanked: 267 times

Re: Example of Creation or Design

Post #82

Post by Bust Nak »

2timothy316 wrote: Are these people wrong?
Mixed bag, there is lots of truth in here, but a few dodgy claims spoils the whole thing.
Are you saying there is some 'force that drives the evolution train'? (their words not mine)
Yes, there is is some "force that drives the evolution train," it says so right there in the opening paragraph - it's natural selection.

User avatar
rikuoamero
Under Probation
Posts: 6707
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:06 pm
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Example of Creation or Design

Post #83

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 78 by 2timothy316]
I sit corrected.
Okay good. Still waiting on it by the way (the designer).
This is what I mean by heading down the road of being intellectually dishonest. What do you find authoritative when it comes to the English language? Or do you set yourself as the only one with the authority to say what is and what isn't. What is the word for 'something with a purpose' in your lexicon? Even when I use a
thesaurus one the synonyms for 'on purpose' is 'designed'. One of the antonyms is 'unplanned'. What do you make this knowledge?
What I mean is that in this discussion, you need more than a dictionary definition to support the claim that life-forms (in general) are designed by a designer.
So far in this thread (going by memory) you have given me a bird's egg, said it has a purpose, then used a dictionary definition to (in so many words) say "Therefore, it was designed!"

I have to remind you that you have not yet attempted my locked room scenario.
Are you saying that I have fulfilled 50% of the OP and that you and I can agree from here on out that something in biology can be accepted as being designed? If so then I'd be happy to go on to the next 50%.
Nope, merely pointing out that when it came to you claiming you were sticking by the
OP, you actually weren't. You had forgotten that the OP called for one to show the designer of a life-form.
Image

Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

2timothy316
Under Probation
Posts: 4298
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
Has thanked: 193 times
Been thanked: 494 times

Re: Example of Creation or Design

Post #84

Post by 2timothy316 »

rikuoamero wrote:
Are you saying that I have fulfilled 50% of the OP and that you and I can agree from here on out that something in biology can be accepted as being designed? If so then I'd be happy to go on to the next 50%.
Nope, merely pointing out that when it came to you claiming you were sticking by the
OP, you actually weren't. You had forgotten that the OP called for one to show the designer of a life-form.
If you don't accept something was designed despite what is observed then you're not being intellectually honest. If you don't accept that something was designed then I see no point in continuing the discussion looking for a designer.

User avatar
rikuoamero
Under Probation
Posts: 6707
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:06 pm
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Example of Creation or Design

Post #85

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 81 by 2timothy316]
Are these people wrong?
Not necessarily right, and they cannot be trusted. As their about page states, their articles come from the Discovery Institute, and they cannot be trusted about anything.
Image

Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

User avatar
rikuoamero
Under Probation
Posts: 6707
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:06 pm
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Example of Creation or Design

Post #86

Post by rikuoamero »

2timothy316 wrote:
rikuoamero wrote:
Are you saying that I have fulfilled 50% of the OP and that you and I can agree from here on out that something in biology can be accepted as being designed? If so then I'd be happy to go on to the next 50%.
Nope, merely pointing out that when it came to you claiming you were sticking by the
OP, you actually weren't. You had forgotten that the OP called for one to show the designer of a life-form.
If you don't accept something was designed despite what is observed then you're not being intellectually honest. If you don't accept that something was designed then I see no point in continuing the discussion looking for a designer.
You haven't shown me an observation of something being designed. This
Image
is not equivalent to this
Image

Again, to repeat myself, all you have done is shown me an egg, and then point to a dictionary.
This does not satisfy my challenge.
You have not shown me the actual designing going on (if there is any) just presumed it to be there. You have also not suggested to me what this designer is or could be, even though you, I and the rest of the forum-ites know precisely what it is you want to suggest.
Image

Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

User avatar
Clownboat
Savant
Posts: 10260
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 3:42 pm
Has thanked: 1452 times
Been thanked: 1757 times

Re: Example of Creation or Design

Post #87

Post by Clownboat »

Not sure what this has to do with flowers and humming birds evolving together. Please explain why if a population of flowers changes over the years that a humming bird population cannot change along with it. What allows the flower to mutate, but not the humming bird in this example of yours?
It appears you didn't read the article I submitted.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Bird ... 652872.php
Why do you make this empty claim?
From your article: "The beaks of the birds have developed in size and shape so that they pollinate the flowers more effectively, while the flowers have developed in color and shape to fit the evolving bird beaks more easily, the scientists find."

So again I ask you: "Please explain why if a population of flowers changes over the years that a humming bird population cannot change along with it. What allows the flower to mutate, but not the humming bird in this example of yours?"
Two biologists studying the lives of hummingbirds and flowers on Caribbean islands have discovered a remarkable example of animals and plants that evolve to meet each other's needs.
Yet the theory of evolution states,
"Mutations can be beneficial, neutral, or harmful for the organism, but mutations do not "try" to supply what the organism "needs." Factors in the environment may influence the rate of mutation but are not generally thought to influence the direction of mutation."
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrar ... tations_07

Do you see the problem here?
No, and I'm guessing you don't either otherwise you would have mentioned it.
Evolution states that things mutations are completely random and "mutations do not "try" to supply what the organism "needs." Yet, that is not what biologist are observing. They are not random but spot on. The lock is changing and the key is adapting with no problems. It also happens quickly not millions of years.
Please don't shower me with your own ignorance.
Not all mutations are what an organism 'needs', nor are they spot on. They are random, but it is only the beneficial ones that remain in a population. Please understand that dead organisms have a hard time reproducing.
Explain this please. Why are all the mutations beneficial for both bird and flower when the theory doesn't support such behavior?
They are not. Some mutations are harmful and don't get passed on in the population of animals.
The mutations are meeting a purpose are they not?
Clearly they are not.
If you still don't understand, please let me know where you are getting hung up.
You can give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day, or you can teach a man to pray for fish and he will starve to death.

I blame man for codifying those rules into a book which allowed superstitious people to perpetuate a barbaric practice. Rules that must be followed or face an invisible beings wrath. - KenRU

It is sad that in an age of freedom some people are enslaved by the nomads of old. - Marco

If you are unable to demonstrate that what you believe is true and you absolve yourself of the burden of proof, then what is the purpose of your arguments? - brunumb

2timothy316
Under Probation
Posts: 4298
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
Has thanked: 193 times
Been thanked: 494 times

Re: Example of Creation or Design

Post #88

Post by 2timothy316 »

Bust Nak wrote:
2timothy316 wrote: Are these people wrong?
Mixed bag, there is lots of truth in here, but a few dodgy claims spoils the whole thing.
Interesting and worrisome. So there are people calling themselves evolutionist that really have it wrong? If you're wrong and they are right how would we know?
Are you saying there is some 'force that drives the evolution train'? (their words not mine)
Yes, there is is some "force that drives the evolution train," it says so right there in the opening paragraph - it's natural selection.
Did the force natural selection come about randomly or does it show signs of being designed? Remember, the definition for designed is 'something with a purpose'. The product of random has no purpose.

2timothy316
Under Probation
Posts: 4298
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:51 am
Has thanked: 193 times
Been thanked: 494 times

Re: Example of Creation or Design

Post #89

Post by 2timothy316 »

[Replying to post 86 by rikuoamero]

I am no longer interested in continuing this discussion due to intellectual dishonesty.

User avatar
rikuoamero
Under Probation
Posts: 6707
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:06 pm
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Example of Creation or Design

Post #90

Post by rikuoamero »

2timothy316 wrote: [Replying to post 86 by rikuoamero]

I am no longer interested in continuing this discussion due to intellectual dishonesty.
If you no longer wish to, there's nothing I can do to keep you here. Just know that it would be a plausible claim if I turned the charge right around back on you: there's you previously stating what the OP wants despite being incorrect, and then there's you never going further in your efforts to justify your claim beyond simply saying "Here's an egg...oh and the dictionary".
However, I am not going to make that claim. I'm merely going to say that once I pointed out where I was going with this (with the locked room scenario I mentioned earlier), you realized there was nothing you could do to satisfy my OP. In order to show design going on, you need to be able to show a designer, and since in your mind the designer is God, (who is apparently immaterial, invisible, undetectable), that would mean you'd have to prove God exists (and that you couldn't use the example of the egg to prove God exists, since then that would mean circular logic: the proof for the egg being designed is God, and the proof for God is the egg being designed).

Now if anyone else would care to take a stab at my OP, even given the previous paragraph...?
Image

Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

Post Reply