I was studying Hebrews 11 today which praises people of faith. Verses 17-19 of that chapter lauds Abraham's obedience to God as Abraham was ready to murder his own son Isaac. (The original grotesque tale appears in Genesis 22.)
Would you murder your own son if God asked you to?
Yes--Well, this answer speaks for itself.
No--Then you admit that your religion is immoral.
I think I have faith of my own that none of the Christians here will give a straight, honest answer to this question. You will stonewall and do everything you can to divert attention away from this issue. You know that your religion is immoral but will never admit it.
Would you sacrifice your own son like Abraham was ready to
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liamconnor
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Re: Would you sacrifice your own son like Abraham was ready
Post #11Jagella wrote: I was studying Hebrews 11 today which praises people of faith. Verses 17-19 of that chapter lauds Abraham's obedience to God as Abraham was ready to murder his own son Isaac. (The original grotesque tale appears in Genesis 22.)
Would you murder your own son if God asked you to?
Yes--Well, this answer speaks for itself.
No--Then you admit that your religion is immoral.
I think I have faith of my own that none of the Christians here will give a straight, honest answer to this question. You will stonewall and do everything you can to divert attention away from this issue. You know that your religion is immoral but will never admit it.
For the religion to be immoral God would have had to continue the sacrifice.
The real question is:
1) Did Abraham really intend to kill Isaac?
2) Did Abraham intend to kill Isaac, while believing that God could and would raise him (he said to the slave "we will return".
The Israelite religion as a whole condemned human sacrifice, unlike its neighboring religions. Thus an intellectually honest mind will read this episode in light of the religions general abhorrence of human sacrifice.
Of course, I understand that on a site like this we do not care about reading texts graciously; all we care about (as in the courtroom) is covering our own position and lambasting the other.
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rikuoamero
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Re: Would you sacrifice your own son like Abraham was ready
Post #12So commands to do things that would otherwise be immoral, are not immoral if the commands are countermanded at the last instance?liamconnor wrote:Jagella wrote: I was studying Hebrews 11 today which praises people of faith. Verses 17-19 of that chapter lauds Abraham's obedience to God as Abraham was ready to murder his own son Isaac. (The original grotesque tale appears in Genesis 22.)
Would you murder your own son if God asked you to?
Yes--Well, this answer speaks for itself.
No--Then you admit that your religion is immoral.
I think I have faith of my own that none of the Christians here will give a straight, honest answer to this question. You will stonewall and do everything you can to divert attention away from this issue. You know that your religion is immoral but will never admit it.
For the religion to be immoral God would have had to continue the sacrifice.
The real question is:
1) Did Abraham really intend to kill Isaac?
2) Did Abraham intend to kill Isaac, while believing that God could and would raise him (he said to the slave "we will return".
The Israelite religion as a whole condemned human sacrifice, unlike its neighboring religions. Thus an intellectually honest mind will read this episode in light of the religions general abhorrence of human sacrifice.
Of course, I understand that on a site like this we do not care about reading texts graciously; all we care about (as in the courtroom) is covering our own position and lambasting the other.
1) evidently yes. Otherwise the 'moral' of the story becomes obey God when he commands you to do something that is ordinarily abhorrent, but only so far. Don't go all the way, just...pretend to do it.
2) does this belief (if he had it, what you have is at best an inference and not anything explicit) excuse the actions taken? Does this excuse a modern day suicide bomber who proclaims a belief that he and his victims will return from the scene of the blast?
As for the Israelite religion...what religion? Abraham is THE patriarch. There are no strictures or commands from an already existing 'true religion for him to consult, much like Ned Flanders does in the Simpsons whenever he wants to do something.
As for what an intellectually honest mind would think...tell me please Liam. Let's say you hear a story about a prominent Christian priest. He's from a religion that abhors X...lets say it's gay sex. One day you hear this priest is caught moments away from engaging in gay sex. Will you believe this priest when he says God told him to do it? Wouldn't you as an intellectually honest mind think that this is just a rationalisation, an excuse? After all...his religion forbids it.
Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"
I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead
Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense
Re: Would you sacrifice your own son like Abraham was ready
Post #13[Replying to post 4 by Wootah]
I'm not sure what you mean by "strawmanning" the story of Abraham. I don't whitewash any stories in the Bible. I cited Genesis 22, so everybody can read the story for themselves.Are you strawmanning the story of Abraham?
As a Christian you must obey the Bible god no matter what he commands. The basis for Christian morals is whatever that god dictates including murdering one's own children.I would like to think I would do what Abraham did in that story were I in his shoes for that story.
Thanks for that honest answer! See, it wasn't so hard, now was it?If the Christian God asked me to kill my son I would.
Your being unable to conceive a situation in which God asks you to do anything is irrelevant. Consider Isaiah 55:8:But I can't conceive a scenario involving the real me and the real God that would lead up to God asking me to kill my son.
Jews and Christians have created a god who is inscrutable. In so doing you disqualify your own opinions regarding what he will or will not do. So if you cannot imagine God asking you to kill your own son, then your inability to do so doesn't matter. God can act contrary to what you think is right.For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the Lord.
I'd describe my assumptions as "unorthodox" and the product of independent thinking. I read the Bible and come to my own conclusions. My conclusions are not swayed by what many Christians teach about the Bible. I read the Bible for what it says rather than what some apologists say it says.You aren't thinking through how illogical your assumptions are.
Yes--the middle finger. LOL I love anybody I feel is lovable. I go beyond my neighbors loving anybody who is worthy. I don't hate anybody, but if I did, then I have the right to do so. My moral is much better than yours because it's actually doable and sends the message that if we want love, then we must be lovable. If we act like jerks, then we need not expect anybody to love us.Why not try to do what we know the Christian God is asking us all to do - to love our neighbours as ourselves. Are you sticking your finger up to God on that one as well?
We're going off topic here a bit, but I would not label myself as "pro-abortion." We can greatly reduce the number of abortions with more effective birth control--and I will give you one guess as to who opposes contraceptives!Also, for fun, one wonders if you are pro-abortion or not?
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William
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Post #14
Oh God said to Abraham, “Kill me a son�
Abe said, “Man, you must be puttin' me on�
God say, “No.�
Abe say, “What?�
God say, “You can do what you want, Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run�
Well Abe says, “Where you want this killin' done?�
God says, “Out on Highway 61� ~ Highway 61 Revisited ~ Bob Dylan
Like a lot of old Hebrew myths and analogies, this one has always appeared to me to be a parable of sorts which was written to show the great faith Abe had in his idea of GOD.
It does not appear to be a story created to encourage others of that creed to follow suit. It (and other stories like this one) are specific to a particular personality who is often portrayed in a leading position of influence, like all heroes of stories.
One can of course argue the sanity of the Abe character in this regard - it is not clear how this GOD speaks to [his] followers but one can assume that if there is no mention of how this is done, that 'a voice in the head' has something to do with this and one can certainly argue a case for mental illness, but I doubt anyone who loves the story would see it in that light.
One of the things which comes to mind is that the GOD does not ask anything of a person that the person would not be able to do. This implies that the GOD knows the person intimately and also that if the GOD did ask Abe to kill/sacrifice/murder his own son, then the GOD would have been aware that Abe was capable of doing the deed.
This in turn implies that the test had nothing to do with the GOD wanting to find out if Abe would do the deed, but in Abe discovering a deeper (and darker) side to himself to which he may not have been fully acquainted with.
As the story goes, Abe loved his son. If that is the case then he would have experienced great turmoil at what he believed his GOD had told him to go and do on the mountain. Obviously one would have to investigate further as to the background relationship Abe had developed with his GOD in order to get a clearer understanding of what motivated the man to obey the perceived order without question.
One thing has to be said, Abe loved his GOD at least as much as he loved his son, and most likely more.
But then we enter into the area of questioning 'what is love?' and did Abe love either his GOD or his son? Or was Abe's love for his GOD based upon fear? Thus more background knowledge and the need to examine how 'love' has evolved in meaning from that day to this, or even from that day to the time of Jesus, for that matter.
It appears that Abe kept his intentions from others. He lied to his servants when he told them to wait with the livestock that he and his son were off to worship on the mountain and would both return later on.
The way the story unfolds, Abe's son carried the wood for the fire, while Abe carried the fire and the knife.
Abe's son noticed that there was no lamb for the sacrifice and again Abe hid his true intentions and told his son that 'GOD would provide the lamb' - the son (Yitzchak) accepted this.
Abe's son finally understood when Abe bound him and laid him on the sacrificially alter of wood. The 'lamb' Abe provided, at his GODs order.
We can fill in the blanks here as to the natural reaction the son would have had to these unfolding circumstances...
Abe lifted the knife to sacrifice his son, and then 'behold!'
An 'Angel of the Lord' speaking on behalf of Abes GOD, appeared from another dimension and told Abe to stop what he was about to do and told Abe that GOD 'now knew that Abe feared [him] - seeing that Abe was willing to kill his son at the GODs order.
And then the reward for Abes obedience to his GOD was that Abe's seed would multiply, which of course couldn't have happened if Abe had actually gone through with the killing - at least not with Yitzchak (Issac)
Now apparently the name Yitzchak means humor/laughter which is quite strange as the whole story is no laughing matter, but perhaps Abe eventually got the joke?
Whatever the intricacies involved with the story, IF indeed the GOD did order the sacrifice, it is evident to me at least that there was never the intention to have Abe go through with it, but to show what men are capable of doing when they fear an idea of GOD that much they are willing to forsake a very common decency to prove it.
However, it is all very well speaking of 'common decency' about a time in human history where cultures thought nothing of sacrificing their children to various ideas of GOD, and not just out of fear or love but in some cases simply for the sake of blood-lust and a twisted belief that GODs demand such things of human beings, which all said and done is most likely a human invention rather than the invention of any GODs.
One thing is clear, the story itself did not appear to speak to the need to sacrifice children to this GOD, (for it was never a religious ritual with the Hebrews) yet the requirement within the human psyche to sacrifice some type of living being to appease 'the gods' was not something one could easily purge from the psyche of human beings. Ideas of GODs tend take on a life of their own in which humans can and do give up their precious possessions for (including their own lives and those of their families) when the situation necessitates having to do so.
What we have here then, I contend, in the Abrahamic idea of GOD, is a clear indication of an idea which has been evolving within human understanding which replaces by degree more primitive ideas of GOD that have proven harmful to overall human progress.
Not to say that the dualic struggle hasn't and isn't still going on in that regard - in relation to the Abrahamic idea of GOD, as the darkness has sought to keep its fist secure around antiquated ideas which have assisted in resisting the natural evolution of human understanding insomuch as it has become an enemy of the very thing it was supposed to support.
And in doing so it has brought a type of great shame to the very idea of GOD.
Not that I personally feel any shame, and confidently declare myself a theist who believes in GOD - but then, my theology is nothing to be ashamed about, and my idea of GOD is far more evolved than the biblical one...but primarily that is because the biblical one is stuck struggling within the pages of a few books, unchanging and mostly irrelevant.
One can indeed study the nature of this particular - Abrahamic - idea of GOD and see therein the shape of a Devil. Most Christians seem to argue in favor of the GOD in a kind of 'better the devil you know' manner - inasmuch as the particular situation humanity has been involved with demands the harsh but there is 'method in the madness' as the saying goes.
The Christian spectrum of varying belief which satellites this idea of GOD moves from the cold harshness of ttruscott's theology right through to the more lovey dovey type which Peds Nurse displays.
Somewhere in the middle of those two extremes is perhaps where the focus is best applied, but - in my mind at least - I can see a definite attempt at the evolution in the understanding of the idea of GOD (in general) whispering its presence throughout the pages of the books - while the more primitive idea roars away in its fight to maintain the upper hand in the psyche of the human being, and people are still very much afraid to upset that beast.
Abe said, “Man, you must be puttin' me on�
God say, “No.�
Abe say, “What?�
God say, “You can do what you want, Abe, but
The next time you see me comin' you better run�
Well Abe says, “Where you want this killin' done?�
God says, “Out on Highway 61� ~ Highway 61 Revisited ~ Bob Dylan
Like a lot of old Hebrew myths and analogies, this one has always appeared to me to be a parable of sorts which was written to show the great faith Abe had in his idea of GOD.
It does not appear to be a story created to encourage others of that creed to follow suit. It (and other stories like this one) are specific to a particular personality who is often portrayed in a leading position of influence, like all heroes of stories.
One can of course argue the sanity of the Abe character in this regard - it is not clear how this GOD speaks to [his] followers but one can assume that if there is no mention of how this is done, that 'a voice in the head' has something to do with this and one can certainly argue a case for mental illness, but I doubt anyone who loves the story would see it in that light.
I am not a Christian (and the question is asked of Christians) but I would answer 'no' and if the question was 'do you believe a Christian would murder their own children if God asked them to' my answer would also be 'no'.Would you murder your own son if God asked you to?
One of the things which comes to mind is that the GOD does not ask anything of a person that the person would not be able to do. This implies that the GOD knows the person intimately and also that if the GOD did ask Abe to kill/sacrifice/murder his own son, then the GOD would have been aware that Abe was capable of doing the deed.
This in turn implies that the test had nothing to do with the GOD wanting to find out if Abe would do the deed, but in Abe discovering a deeper (and darker) side to himself to which he may not have been fully acquainted with.
As the story goes, Abe loved his son. If that is the case then he would have experienced great turmoil at what he believed his GOD had told him to go and do on the mountain. Obviously one would have to investigate further as to the background relationship Abe had developed with his GOD in order to get a clearer understanding of what motivated the man to obey the perceived order without question.
One thing has to be said, Abe loved his GOD at least as much as he loved his son, and most likely more.
But then we enter into the area of questioning 'what is love?' and did Abe love either his GOD or his son? Or was Abe's love for his GOD based upon fear? Thus more background knowledge and the need to examine how 'love' has evolved in meaning from that day to this, or even from that day to the time of Jesus, for that matter.
It appears that Abe kept his intentions from others. He lied to his servants when he told them to wait with the livestock that he and his son were off to worship on the mountain and would both return later on.
The way the story unfolds, Abe's son carried the wood for the fire, while Abe carried the fire and the knife.
Abe's son noticed that there was no lamb for the sacrifice and again Abe hid his true intentions and told his son that 'GOD would provide the lamb' - the son (Yitzchak) accepted this.
Abe's son finally understood when Abe bound him and laid him on the sacrificially alter of wood. The 'lamb' Abe provided, at his GODs order.
We can fill in the blanks here as to the natural reaction the son would have had to these unfolding circumstances...
Abe lifted the knife to sacrifice his son, and then 'behold!'
An 'Angel of the Lord' speaking on behalf of Abes GOD, appeared from another dimension and told Abe to stop what he was about to do and told Abe that GOD 'now knew that Abe feared [him] - seeing that Abe was willing to kill his son at the GODs order.
And then the reward for Abes obedience to his GOD was that Abe's seed would multiply, which of course couldn't have happened if Abe had actually gone through with the killing - at least not with Yitzchak (Issac)
Now apparently the name Yitzchak means humor/laughter which is quite strange as the whole story is no laughing matter, but perhaps Abe eventually got the joke?
Whatever the intricacies involved with the story, IF indeed the GOD did order the sacrifice, it is evident to me at least that there was never the intention to have Abe go through with it, but to show what men are capable of doing when they fear an idea of GOD that much they are willing to forsake a very common decency to prove it.
However, it is all very well speaking of 'common decency' about a time in human history where cultures thought nothing of sacrificing their children to various ideas of GOD, and not just out of fear or love but in some cases simply for the sake of blood-lust and a twisted belief that GODs demand such things of human beings, which all said and done is most likely a human invention rather than the invention of any GODs.
One thing is clear, the story itself did not appear to speak to the need to sacrifice children to this GOD, (for it was never a religious ritual with the Hebrews) yet the requirement within the human psyche to sacrifice some type of living being to appease 'the gods' was not something one could easily purge from the psyche of human beings. Ideas of GODs tend take on a life of their own in which humans can and do give up their precious possessions for (including their own lives and those of their families) when the situation necessitates having to do so.
What we have here then, I contend, in the Abrahamic idea of GOD, is a clear indication of an idea which has been evolving within human understanding which replaces by degree more primitive ideas of GOD that have proven harmful to overall human progress.
Not to say that the dualic struggle hasn't and isn't still going on in that regard - in relation to the Abrahamic idea of GOD, as the darkness has sought to keep its fist secure around antiquated ideas which have assisted in resisting the natural evolution of human understanding insomuch as it has become an enemy of the very thing it was supposed to support.
And in doing so it has brought a type of great shame to the very idea of GOD.
Not that I personally feel any shame, and confidently declare myself a theist who believes in GOD - but then, my theology is nothing to be ashamed about, and my idea of GOD is far more evolved than the biblical one...but primarily that is because the biblical one is stuck struggling within the pages of a few books, unchanging and mostly irrelevant.
One can indeed study the nature of this particular - Abrahamic - idea of GOD and see therein the shape of a Devil. Most Christians seem to argue in favor of the GOD in a kind of 'better the devil you know' manner - inasmuch as the particular situation humanity has been involved with demands the harsh but there is 'method in the madness' as the saying goes.
The Christian spectrum of varying belief which satellites this idea of GOD moves from the cold harshness of ttruscott's theology right through to the more lovey dovey type which Peds Nurse displays.
Somewhere in the middle of those two extremes is perhaps where the focus is best applied, but - in my mind at least - I can see a definite attempt at the evolution in the understanding of the idea of GOD (in general) whispering its presence throughout the pages of the books - while the more primitive idea roars away in its fight to maintain the upper hand in the psyche of the human being, and people are still very much afraid to upset that beast.
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JehovahsWitness
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Re: Would you sacrifice your own son like Abraham was ready
Post #15[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]
Re: Would you sacrifice your own son like Abraham was ready to
Yes, absolutely. .
In the same circumstances as Abraham, I hope my faith would be as strong as his.
JW
RELATED POSTS
Abraham: The Father of all those having faith
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 84#p852184
Re: Would you sacrifice your own son like Abraham was ready to
Yes, absolutely. .
In the same circumstances as Abraham, I hope my faith would be as strong as his.
JW
RELATED POSTS
Abraham: The Father of all those having faith
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 84#p852184
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue May 26, 2020 9:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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William
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Re: Would you sacrifice your own son like Abraham was ready
Post #16JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Jagella]
Re: Would you sacrifice your own son like Abraham was ready to
Yes, absolutely. .
In the same circumstances as Abraham, I hope my faith would be as strong as his.
JW
According to the story, Abe's actions were not prompted through faith but through fear.
So if you want to stick to the absolute conviction in your answer, you will need to adjust accordingly.
In other words the more accurate answer would be;
"In the same circumstances as Abraham, I hope my fear would be as strong as his."
But even more essentially, whether 'faith' or 'fear' the underlying darkness within your psyche is that you would happily murder your own child either being motivated by fear or faith? Matters not?
But I think it would not be a case of fear or of faith in your idea of GOD which would have you absolutely actually do this. I think that if a voice in your head or a vision of some image representing your idea of GOD came and demanded such a thing of you, you would consider it the devil and tell it to naff off (because - well - you know...the devil can appear as an angel of light right?)
If it persisted, you might even seek professional help.
I think that is more or less what you would do, judging by the self expression you insert into this forum JDub.
But then, I cannot be 100% certain of that either. Your answer to the OP question certainly has me wondering as to what darkness resides within your psyche, but I think perhaps you are just confused.
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jgh7
Re: Would you sacrifice your own son like Abraham was ready
Post #17I know fear of God is mentioned a lot in the OT. But I've heard that fear meant something different than what we understand it to be. I think it was more akin to respect for God. But I could be wrong. I would have to see the accurate Jewish translation of the word.William wrote:JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Jagella]
Re: Would you sacrifice your own son like Abraham was ready to
Yes, absolutely. .
In the same circumstances as Abraham, I hope my faith would be as strong as his.
JW
According to the story, Abe's actions were not prompted through faith but through fear.
So if you want to stick to the absolute conviction in your answer, you will need to adjust accordingly.
In other words the more accurate answer would be;
"In the same circumstances as Abraham, I hope my fear would be as strong as his."
But even more essentially, whether 'faith' or 'fear' the underlying darkness within your psyche is that you would happily murder your own child either being motivated by fear or faith? Matters not?
But I think it would not be a case of fear or of faith in your idea of GOD which would have you absolutely actually do this. I think that if a voice in your head or a vision of some image representing your idea of GOD came and demanded such a thing of you, you would consider it the devil and tell it to naff off (because - well - you know...the devil can appear as an angel of light right?)
If it persisted, you might even seek professional help.
I think that is more or less what you would do, judging by the self expression you insert into this forum JDub.
But then, I cannot be 100% certain of that either. Your answer to the OP question certainly has me wondering as to what darkness resides within your psyche, but I think perhaps you are just confused.
Re: Would you sacrifice your own son like Abraham was ready
Post #18I think this highlights the evil in adherence to one's selfish belief in God. Today people do murder because they think God told them to. If we assume we have a good God then we interpret the command "Kill your son" as wicked or a delusion.Jagella wrote:
Would you murder your own son if God asked you to?
Abraham is perhaps one of the most wicked men in the OT because he advertises murder as good. Cain's wickedness we can condemn, but Abraham, the father of modern suicide bombers and terrorists, (God is great - obey him!) encourages otherwise good people to aaccept that murdering one's son is good when demanded by God.
One of the worst aspects of religion is that those, who zealously believe, place God above their family and thereby lose much of their humanity. We are not gods; our first duty is to protect those we love, not kill them. When God says otherwise, we throw God overboard. The tale of Isaac being led to potential slaughter by his sick father is horrible in every aspect. It should repel readers.
Re: Would you sacrifice your own son like Abraham was ready
Post #19jgh7 wrote:
I know fear of God is mentioned a lot in the OT. But I've heard that fear meant something different than what we understand it to be. I think it was more akin to respect for God. But I could be wrong. I would have to see the accurate Jewish translation of the word.
In listing the gifts of the Holy Spirit: wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety and fear of the Lord we are to understand that the last gift is not a negative one - fear - but respect / admiration for God. Just as you say.
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Re: Would you sacrifice your own son like Abraham was ready
Post #20[Replying to post 19 by marco]
One would have to examine and dissect the overall intention of Abe, as well as the supposed intention of his GOD in relation to respect and as we all should understand already, respect isn't necessarily due because one is able to incite fear in another.
Also to remember, in the story Abe invokes his underlying attitude as something which his idea of GOD is responsible for.
Adam did the same thing, btw.
I don't think that this changes the general concern the OP expresses. Would it be the case that assigning 'respect' to the idea of fear in itself in any way makes the intention of the act (or the ideal some have expressed here that they would murder their child) any less despicable just because 'respect'?In listing the gifts of the Holy Spirit: wisdom, understanding, counsel, fortitude, knowledge, piety and fear of the Lord we are to understand that the last gift is not a negative one - fear - but respect / admiration for God. Just as you say.
One would have to examine and dissect the overall intention of Abe, as well as the supposed intention of his GOD in relation to respect and as we all should understand already, respect isn't necessarily due because one is able to incite fear in another.
Also to remember, in the story Abe invokes his underlying attitude as something which his idea of GOD is responsible for.
Adam did the same thing, btw.
