What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

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RedEye
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What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

Post #1

Post by RedEye »

These are some lyrics from Jesus Christ Superstar:
  • Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ
    Who are you? What have you sacrificed?
It's a great question. What did Jesus actually sacrifice?

Christian doctrine has it that Jesus sacrificed his life in order to appease God the Father and gain forgiveness for the sins of mankind. But did Jesus really sacrifice his life? He is an immortal being and therefore cannot die. All that happened, if anything, is that he shed his Earthly body and then ascended back to his place in heaven. Shedding a temporary body is no big deal for a god. Jesus is alive and well in heaven (and he will be making a second coming soon according to many).

If you are alive then you did not really die. It was a pretend death. I know some of you may argue that it was a real death of his Earthly body, but so what? He wasn't going to stay in that form forever and it was only a shell he was wearing over his divine nature. The plan was always for him to return to his Father. Human bodies die eventually anyway from old age. Jesus lost nothing essential to him.

I therefore put it to Christians that there was no actual sacrifice. Can any Christian argue otherwise?
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Re: What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

Post #31

Post by Wootah »

RedEye wrote:
Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 1 by RedEye]
God did not have to come to earth, to limit himself to our reality. How isn't that part of the normal definition of sacrifice?
If you are saying that Jesus didn't have to come down slumming with us then I might agree. However, that is not the Christian doctrine to which I am referring. Christians tell us that Jesus died deliberately to serve as a sacrifice to his Father so He would forgive us for our sins. It is the "dying for our sins" which I am contesting as being any kind of sacrifice.
Can humans sacrifice anything? Given that we were nothing and had nothing before we were born and are nothing and have nothing after we die. What can we sacrifice?
We can sacrifice whatever remaining years we had of our lives. That is one helluva sacrifice. The difference is that we truly die. It's not pretend death as in the case of Jesus.
It's worse than pretend death, you had nothing and you lost nothing and probably we are nothing in between that.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

Post #32

Post by jeremiah1five »

RedEye wrote:
jeremiah1five wrote:
RedEye wrote: It's not the same thing at all. I didn't change the meaning of anything you wrote plus I explicitly indicated that I was snipping out off-topic text. There is nothing at all dishonest about that. I was right upfront with what I was doing. First remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye.
There ya go.
You see, that's the difference between you and I. What you did to manipulate my words by bringing scissors to the debate, and my manipulating of your words by making a change - adding, subtracting, whatever - are the same thing. You don't see it. The light is not on. But don't take that as an insult. Just consider.
The insult is to the intelligence of the gentle readers of this thread. I'm sorry that you can't acknowledge your poor behaviour. I have nothing more to say to you if you are going to carry on in this fashion.
You're doing the same thing as before. The justification for removing the Scripture I post because you really do not understand spiritual matters being spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV)
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


And STILL you do not understand.
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Re: What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

Post #33

Post by JehovahsWitness »

RedEye wrote:
  • John 1
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
    :
    10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
    :
    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
I'm fairly sure that is a description of an immortal being.

Do you feel inclined to share (in complete sentences preferably) why you make this assumption?
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Post #34

Post by Elijah John »

jeremiah1five wrote:
RedEye wrote:
I therefore put it to Christians that there was actual sacrifice. Can any Christian argue otherwise?
I agree.
:warning: Moderator Warning


If you are going to quote someone, do so honestly and accurately. You omitted the word "no" before the phase "actual sacrifice". Completely reverses Redeye's intended meaning. Also, if you feel someone has been unfair with you in any way, report it and let the moderators decide, do not retaliate.

Please review our Rules.

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Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.
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-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Post #35

Post by jeremiah1five »

Elijah John wrote:
jeremiah1five wrote:
RedEye wrote:
I therefore put it to Christians that there was actual sacrifice. Can any Christian argue otherwise?
I agree.
:warning: Moderator Warning


If you are going to quote someone, do so honestly and accurately. You omitted the word "no" before the phase "actual sacrifice". Completely reverses Redeye's intended meaning. Also, if you feel someone has been unfair with you in any way, report it and let the moderators decide, do not retaliate.

Please review our Rules.

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Moderator warnings count as a strike against users. Additional violations in the future may warrant a final warning. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.
And deleting the Scripture I post that answers the question put forward and coming back at me to say I didn't answer the question is what?

Honest?
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Re: What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

Post #36

Post by 1213 »

RedEye wrote: …
As I have already explained, Jesus did not sacrifice his life for us. He's still alive. Right?
As said before, Jesus used his life for benefit of other people. He didn’t use it for himself. Because of that, it can be said, he sacrificed his life for us. He gave his life to us, by working for us.

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Re: What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

Post #37

Post by RedEye »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
RedEye wrote:
  • John 1
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
    :
    10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.
    :
    14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
I'm fairly sure that is a description of an immortal being.
Do you feel inclined to share (in complete sentences preferably) why you make this assumption?
I shouldn't need to. The text speaks for itself.

Jesus = Word = God

Jesus is the Word (made flesh) and the Word is God. God is an immortal being. Are you disputing any of that?
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Re: What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

Post #38

Post by RedEye »

Wootah wrote:
RedEye wrote:
Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 1 by RedEye]
God did not have to come to earth, to limit himself to our reality. How isn't that part of the normal definition of sacrifice?
If you are saying that Jesus didn't have to come down slumming with us then I might agree. However, that is not the Christian doctrine to which I am referring. Christians tell us that Jesus died deliberately to serve as a sacrifice to his Father so He would forgive us for our sins. It is the "dying for our sins" which I am contesting as being any kind of sacrifice.
Can humans sacrifice anything? Given that we were nothing and had nothing before we were born and are nothing and have nothing after we die. What can we sacrifice?
We can sacrifice whatever remaining years we had of our lives. That is one helluva sacrifice. The difference is that we truly die. It's not pretend death as in the case of Jesus.
It's worse than pretend death, you had nothing and you lost nothing and probably we are nothing in between that.
I'm afraid that we will have to agree to disagree. I don't consider my life to be nothing. It has immense value to me. It's really quite sad if you consider yourself to be nothing between birth and death. This seems to be what religion does to its adherents, making them feel worthless in the face of their deity. As an atheist I believe that this is the only life I will have and I treasure every single moment. It would most certainly be a sacrifice if I gave it up (to save someone else for example).
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Re: What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

Post #39

Post by RedEye »

1213 wrote:
RedEye wrote: …
As I have already explained, Jesus did not sacrifice his life for us. He's still alive. Right?
As said before, Jesus used his life for benefit of other people. He didn’t use it for himself. Because of that, it can be said, he sacrificed his life for us. He gave his life to us, by working for us.
Jesus is still alive. Right?
Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.

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Re: What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

Post #40

Post by JehovahsWitness »

RedEye wrote:

Jesus = Word = God

Jesus is the Word (made flesh) and the Word is God.
  • Are you claiming that the text is saying Jesus is ALMIGHTY God the Creator (YHWH) ?

    Since neither the word "Almighty" nor the divine name ( YHWH) is mentioned in the scripture upon what basis do you make such an assumption?

JW
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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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