Civil Debates on Christianity and Religions

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

Reply to topic
ElCodeMonkey
First Post
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:03 pm  Would Jesus Support Republican or Democratic Values More? Reply with quote

I would argue that the Democratic policies focus on the well-being of the poor and the oppressed. As such, I believe Jesus would be more in favor of Democratic values than that of the Republicans which focus more on guns and military while being entirely calloused to the plight of the poor and tend toward discrimination of others not like them.
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 61: Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:20 pm
Reply

Like this post
Elijah John wrote:
Just because a person opposes unfettered immigration and wide open borders, does NOT make them "racist" or "xenophobic" nor does it mean they "fear the other". Yes, we have compassion, but compassion for the American citizen, first. (regardless of race, this is not a racial issue.)

I do not intend to simply say "you disagree and therefore you're racist." Absolutely not. I consider us to be friends, and I like to think we both trust in each other's willingness to listen, and to openly and honestly evaluate data knowing that we both have the best intentions at heart. As such, I have no intention of simply insulting you and I suspect you have no such intention toward me either. My statements weren't simply a jump in the dark because you disagree. I'm asking that you deeply evaluate where the concerns are coming from and/or to provide more data that can explain away what I am legitimately understanding. Our culture is very fear-mongered and outragist these days. As such, it is rather difficult for it not to affect us. I am proposing that it may have had an effect such that you have unwarranted concerns that I am trying to assuage. I am not simply trying to accuse you of anything. I hope that makes sense.

Elijah John wrote:
Do you think that all the illegal immigrants have jobs lined up for them as they enter the US? If not, do they then they go on public assistance? That would cost the taxpayer money that could otherwise go to US citizens in need.

I am sure they do not. However, I am also sure that they do not simply jump right onto public assistance immediately. Most of them likely bring some amount of money, join some family who previously migrated, and/or find themselves jobs first thing. As the data I showed illustrates, they are paying into taxes and being a net benefit. I'm not sure why you would disagree unless you found data that presents a different perspective.

Elijah John wrote:
Do you think all the illegal immigrants are being properly screened for contagious disease?

I have no idea. If not, they should be. Disease is certainly a big problem when mingling peoples. This is simply a step though, not a reason to prevent immigration. There is also no good reason to believe it is currently a problem as it currently stands. We have no record of severe trauma from current protocols as far as I know.

Elijah John wrote:
Or histories of crime or perhaps terrorist ties?

I'm not sure how well this can be done, but as I mentioned before, we have little reason to believe this is even a concern. And if more can be done, then by all means let's do more. But until this actually becomes a legitimate concern and one that we can't do anything about, then let them come.

Elijah John wrote:
Do you dismiss these very valid concerns as "fear of the other"?

They are either fear of the other or they are fear of unwarranted things. People have a very hard time comprehending probability and are afraid of all the wrong things. People fear guns when they should sooner fear their own pool in their backyard, for instance. People fear planes when they should fear cars. There is more fear to be had from our neighbors than from immigrants.

Elijah John wrote:
I hope you're right about the positive impact that illegal immigration will have on the US, but I doubt it. Look what's happening in Europe. Especially Germany, the UK, Norway, and France.

Do elaborate. I'm not familiar with what you're referring to.

Elijah John wrote:
Time will tell, and will vindicate either your position or mine. Let's just see how all this plays out.

It may or it may not. We could say time is already proving it, but at what point do we say it is finished and no huge problems arose? Immigration has been a thing for a very long time. And it appears that immigration is not actually too very different in numbers than before. So our current rate is similar in the past and we have yet to see any major problems from it. Sounds like time is already telling that it is okay. Does that mean it can occur forever? Who knows. Any one location obviously cannot support infinite people. Population itself can become a problem. But if the immigrants are paying our taxes, then I don't see why they should not be treated as one of us. That's all we are is a group of people all paying money to one government to our mutual benefit. All who pay taxes should benefit. I believe you simply have an unfounded belief that they take more than they give. Such accusations of immigrants really needs data to back it up.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 62: Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:08 pm
Reply

Like this post
[Replying to post 61 by ElCodeMonkey]

Agree, and as friends, we give each other the benefit of the doubt for good intentions. Good practice in general, here on this site and in life.

I appreciate what you are attempting to do with statistics and all. But weigh that against a person's actual experience. Statistics are small comfort to the grieving mother who has lost her son, murdered by an illegal immigrant or an MS 13 member. And far less dramatically in my case, yes, I will grant for the sake of argument that we are not being over-run. In theory, perhaps. But in actuallity when I go about my daily business, it sure seems like we are. Especially here in the northeast.

And no one consulted us, it just happened. Seemingly overnight.

What do you think about the exporting or American jobs overseas? Like tech support. Just a phone call away.... to India. Those could be Americans manning those phones, but for some reason businesses find it more profitable to export our jobs. Unfettered capitalism in alliance with globalization, at work.

So you grant that illegal immigrants are not being properly screened for contagious disease. And that is a legitimate concern. So perhaps we can agree then that more controls are needed. Like maybe a wall? Or the end to chain migration? Or the end of the visa lottery? Or the end to birthright citizenship/birth tourism?

And how easy would it be for Middle Eastern terrorists to join a caravan, blend in, and once here, establish a terrorist sleeper cell? Remember, this is a legit concern in this post 9-11 world.

I keep hearing from left wing pundits that walls don't work. The wall is woking in Israel, greatly curtailing terrorism. Could it be that the left fears the wall would work all too well?

And how about the enviroment? In Arizona, there are thousands of tons of garbage in the desert, contaminating the soil, harming wildlife, left by illegal immigrants.

Yea it's easy to be dismissive of Fox news for painting a negative picture of illegal immigration. But what about CNN and MSNBC, who paint a rosy picture that does not reflect reality? And are hesitant to report any crimes or misbehavior by illegals. Could it be that the truth of the matter, the real picture is somewhere in between what Fox vs CNN/MSNBC would have us believe?

And I don't remember if I raised this point with you. Adocates often point to our need as a nation to import more people, to compensate for deciling birthrates among millenials. Instead of attempting to find out just why young people are having trouble affording families, houses, cars, etc, and do somethine to help them, they find it easier to import young people from other countries by any means possible. Including illegal immigration, which would, they would have us believe, strengthens the country. Tell that to stuggling millenials.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 63: Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:51 pm
Reply

Like this post
Elijah John wrote:
Agree, and as friends, we give each other the benefit of the doubt for good intentions.

Yes. To be clear, I wasn't doubting your intentions. That doesn't mean we can't unintentionally do things, though. For example, I didn't intentionally offend you but that doesn't mean I didn't. So if I did, I apologize.

Elijah John wrote:
I appreciate what you are attempting to do with statistics and all. But weigh that against a person's actual experience. Statistics are small comfort to the grieving mother who has lost her son, murdered by an illegal immigrant.

I think this is a fundamental difference in our way of thinking. Large-scale decisions cannot be made by taking one anecdotal account. Sure, the one person will not be comforted by being informed that [illegal] immigrants don't "normally" do this. But just because that is the case does not mean we should take her disposition to blame immigrants and/or change policies because of a single incident. Or a few incidents out of thousands or millions. Policies need to use statistics, not feelings and personal vendettas.

Elijah John wrote:
And no one consulted us, it just happened. Seemingly overnight.

Why do we need to be consulted? This is what I don't understand from your perspective. Why should we be consulted? Why should you or I get to choose the race, nationality, or origin of our neighbors any more than we choose what they eat or the music they listen to? And on what grounds would we be making this decision? We should be able to decide that we don't want Hindi spoken around us? You say "it" happened without consultation. What is "it"? You refer specifically to your ability to know that immigration took place. If all these people were fluent-English white people, you'd never even know immigration took place and you'd have no beef with "it" that happened. So the "it" you're referring to is specifically that people of other colors and languages are now surrounding you and for some reason you don't like it. And why don't you like it? Seeing it and not being fine with seeing it is not at all tied to the murder rates or the harm to the economy. Especially since those numbers aren't in your favor. So I'm not sure what to conclude with this. Why do we need consulted and what exactly are we basing the decision on?

Elijah John wrote:
What do you think about the exporting or American jobs overseas? Like tech support. Just a phone call away.... to India. Those could be Americans manning those phones, but for some reason businesses find it more profitable to export our jobs. Unfettered capitalism in alliance with globalization, at work.

Well that sounds like a left-wing perspective you hold there Smile. Lack of corporate regulation allows them to let the economy guide their decisions. It is far cheaper to hire support in India so that's what they do. We have a global economy now. Those jobs in India are a great support to India. Not so much a great support here. Of course, if those jobs were here, it would support those here who could have the jobs but at the same time increase prices for the rest of us. Hard to say, but it's a bit off-topic of immigration.

Elijah John wrote:
So you grant that illegal immigrants are not being properly screened for contagious disease. And that is a legitimate concern. So perhaps we can agree then that more controls are needed. Like maybe a wall? Or the end to chain migration? Or the end of the visa lottery? Or the end to birthright citizenship/birth tourism?

No, I didn't say that. Or if I did it was a typo :-p. I said I don't know if they are screened properly but as of now I have yet to hear of any catastrophe surrounding it. So why is there so much fear about something that seems to have no warrant?

Elijah John wrote:
And how easy would it be for Middle Eastern terrorists to join a caravan, blend in, and once here, establish a terrorist sleeper cell? Remember, this is a legit concern in this post 9-11 world.

Something can be a legit concern without being something we need to spend every resources on. It's far more of a legit concern that people are dying of heart attacks because of the sugar industry. If you want to save lives, you'd do far more good fighting sugar than you would worrying about terrorists in caravans.

Elijah John wrote:
I keep hearing from left wing pundits that walls don't work. The wall is woking in Israel, greatly curtailing terrorism. Could it be that the left fears the wall would work all too well?

The wall only helps for a small portion of illegal immigration. Most immigrants fly and most come in legally and simply overstay their welcome. So all it stops are the relatively few coming by land while wasting resources. You don't suppose all these Indian and Chinese people came by walking from Mexico do you?

Elijah John wrote:
And how about the enviroment? In Arizona, there are thousands of tons of garbage in the desert, contaminating the soil, harming wildlife, left by illegal immigrants.

Please show me data that shows that illegal immigrants pollute more than a generic population of people. If they do not, then you are again only concerned with population increase rather than immigration.

Elijah John wrote:
Yea it's easy to be dismissive of Fox news for painting a negative picture of illegal immigration. But what about CNN and MSNBC, who paint a rosy picture that does not reflect reality? And are hesitant to report any crimes or misbehavior by illegals. Could it be that the truth of the matter, the real picture is somewhere in between what Fox vs CNN/MSNBC would have us believe?

This is simply not true. They do report on things and they do so rather balanced. Take this article for example: https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/26/americas/migrants-border-questions/index.html. They mention the rock throwign, they mention the gas, they mention both sides of the story, and they don't at all say "this is a travesty" or "how dare the US" or "Finally we're protecting our border" or any commentary of the like. Just facts and quotes from both sides.


Elijah John wrote:
Instead of attempting to find out just why young people are having trouble affording families, houses, cars, etc, and do somethine to help them, they find it easier to import young people from other countries by any means possible. Including illegal immigration, which would, they would have us believe, strengthens the country. Tell that to stuggling millenials.

I don't think things are that simple and this seems to contradict your other disposition on immigration. How can we be bringing in immigrants to compensate for our lack if indeed immigrants cause more harm than good? Last I knew, we didn't have enough people to fill our engineering needs. Why not? If there are so many struggling millenials, why aren't they taking the engineering jobs? Can't afford college? Neither could I and yet the government managed to help me get loans. The left is all about free college as well so that the millenials CAN get the jobs. So what is the right doing about it? They don't like giving handouts for things like education when education is all the more necessary in today's world. So I'm not sure what your point is here. It might also be worth considering what happens when the baby boomers retire and there aren't nearly as many Gen X and Millenials in the workplace to support them. Immigration to fill their jobs will help sustain them in retirement.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 64: Mon Dec 24, 2018 6:00 pm
Reply

Like this post
[Replying to post 63 by ElCodeMonkey]

Merry Christmas Sean, I'll try to continue next week or just after the New Year.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 65: Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:40 am
Reply

Like this post (1): Elijah John
[Replying to post 64 by Elijah John]

I just got back from vacation in Mexico so I was a bit detained myself. I hope you also had a good set of holidays and I'll look forward to future response Smile.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 66: Tue Jan 08, 2019 6:52 pm
Reply

Like this post
Hi ECM. Hope you enjoyed your vacation in Mexico.

Working on a longer reply to your post, but in the meantime, have a look-see and listen to this video from President Clinton back in the 90's.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=president+bill+clinton+on+illegal+immigrati...

When Clinton says it he receives bipartisan support. When Trump says the same thing, he is "racist" and "white supremacist" and advocates "white nationilsm"???

A bit of a double standard by some on the Left, eh?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 67: Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:53 pm
Reply

Like this post
[Replying to post 66 by Elijah John]

Vacation was great! Loved the Cenotes.

Clinton actually gave a really good speech there and I believe if Trump gave the exact same one it would have been well-received for the most part. Clinton did not say the immigrants were rapists. He said that they are breaking our laws and we must abide by our own laws. He said that some put a burden on tax payers. The extent of that can be argued, but it is still effectively true and non-racist. Whether or not we agree that his decisions are best is still entirely different. The left may have grown more since then and the moral sensitivities of 20+ years ago may have been lacking. That's not a reason not to grow ourselves. I think few people would say that their party is right in all ways and always has been. I think the left today would prefer we update our laws in such a way as to make fewer people illegal and to ease the process rather than to deport. But his choices in words absolutely do not lend to a perception of racism.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 68: Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:17 pm
Reply

Like this post
ElCodeMonkey wrote:

Clinton actually gave a really good speech there and I believe if Trump gave the exact same one it would have been well-received for the most part. Clinton did not say the immigrants were rapists.


Neither did Trump. He said SOME of them were, and also some of them are murderers. Like the low-life so and so, piece of garbage who murdered Officer Singh (a legal immigrant) just after Christmas.

It would be worth preventing 100 good people from entering the country IF that would keep even one parasite scumbag murderer out as well.

Even good people from other countries do not have a RIGHT to infiltrate the US. Visitation, residence and eventual citizenship is a privilege, not a right.

We Americans have (or should have) a right and a say as to who and how many get to come here.

Half the country asserted that right by electing Donald Trump.

The other, the complacent half could well be our undoing.

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 69: Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:00 am
Reply

Like this post
[Replying to post 68 by Elijah John]

He said they are rapists and "some" he "assumes" are good people. This is a very different description. Clinton focused mostly on the laws themselves being broken by nature of being illegal. Nothing to argue there except if we should deport the people or change the laws. And he said "some" are a tax burden rather than stating "they" are a tax burden and "some" might not be. A subtle difference in wording has a huge difference in meaning. Further, he didn't even leave it at illegal immigrants. It was ALL of Mexican immigrants. He never distinguished. And even if he did, it's still straight up wrong since MOST of them are good people and "some" (even less than our own people) are not.

“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best. They’re not sending you. They’re not sending you. They’re sending people that have lots of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.”

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Post BBCode URL - Right click and save to clipboard to use later in post Post 70: Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:01 pm
Reply

Like this post
ElCodeMonkey wrote:


Clinton actually gave a really good speech there... He said that some put a burden on tax payers. The extent of that can be argued, but it is still effectively true and non-racist. .....


I think you're mistaken here ECM. Verbatim, Clinton said in the clip:

"All Americans are rightly disturbed by the large numbers of illegal aliens entering our country. The jobs they (not some) hold might otherwise be held by citizens or legal immigrants. The public service they (not some) use impose burdens on our taxpayers."

Clinton's statements here undercut your previous argument that they do no such thing. (take jobs away from citizens and impose tax burdens by using public services). I seem to recall your argument that they contribute more than they take. Were you speaking of legal immigrants? Or legal AND illegal immigrants combined? Please clarify.

So Trump says essentially the same thing and he's "racist" for doing so?

Couple of other observations about Clinton's statements. He said "All" Americans are distubed by illegal immigration. Seemingly not, at least not today. And at least not within his own party. Or with the commentators on CNN or MSNBC who characterize Trump stating we have a crisis on our border as "manufactured" and that he doesn't like "brown people" or "wants to keep America pure and white" or he resents the "browning of America".

If those pundits said those kind of things here on these boards, they would recieve warnings for personal attack, for needlessly making personal comments and judgements, and making the issue needlessly personal. They judge and make accusations without evidence.

Whatever happened to "judge not"?

Goto top, bottom
View user's profile 
Display posts from previous:   

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

Jump to:  
Facebook
Tweet

 




On The Web | Ecodia | Hymn Lyrics Apps
Facebook | Twitter

Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group.   Produced by Ecodia.

Igloo   |  Lo-Fi Version