Fighting the "GOOD" Fight -

[William]

...'Comforting Gestures of Approval'

From the thread titled.

"What's the point of debating with Christians?" this wee gem was written in reply to the frustration implied in the OP;

Well, apologetics often makes the Christian religion out to be a "liar" in that apologists must contradict their own Bible to defend the Bible. People will notice this conflict and learn that they're being lied to. So keep fighting the good fight, and some day the truth will shine through.

[link to post]

Apart from its obvious religious overtones (The truth will one day shine through) and whatever that might mean to the author, the idea that continuing to 'debate' with those who have no actual interest in negotiating their faith-based beliefs with anyone... in some wishful hopeful belief that the effort will somehow garner the reward expected, can only ever play into the hand of the faithful as a means of continuing to find fresh audience for their proselytizing their NONNEGOTIABLE faith-based beliefs, because the reliance is on the atheist entering such 'debate' and giving the opportunity for this to happen on a public platform designed for that purpose.

This amounts to the atheist helping in the spread of that which is being proselytized by the Christian and other Abranites.

Hardly the finest tool in the atheist tool box. Or to word it another way, "Hardly the best suit of armor to be wearing for the purpose of 'fighting the good fight'."

Q: What exactly is good about this strategy of warfare which allows all opportunity for the enemy to get what it wants by using simply method of deceptive distractions?

Q: Are their better ways for atheists to fight a good fight, which can impact more directly at the heart of the human problem, which don't involve wasting time in giving Abrahamites every opportunity to proselytize?

[William]

[Replying to post 8 by postroad]

I don't need to make an argument proving that Christianiy is false.

The question is, "do you NEED to make any argument at all?" The idea behind the OPBlurb is that the answer would be, "No, you do not!" and the reason being, is because your arguments are ineffective against nonnegotiable faith based beliefs, which Christianity primarily bases all its scripts upon.

Your argument against the OPBlurb, was that your "history of being quickly and quietly purged from Christian Apologetic sites" "suggests something else" other than what the OP observes regarding the dynamic atheists feed into and help sustain.

My method is simply to cross examine their own claims in order to determine if they can be sustained.

How long have you been 'cross examining' and for what purpose are you doing this? If you are simply arguing here that this is for your benefit, to solidify your belief that the biblical GOD does not exist, (or whatever reason it is that you chose to do so) if you have already reached that conclusion, then what point in continuing this 'cross examination of nonnegotiable faith-based beliefs?

You don't even require Abrahamites in order to accomplish that.

That is exactly what the OP topic is focused upon. It is 'cross examining' the methods employed by atheists in relation to pointless waste of time arguing against those who hold nonnegotiable faith-based beliefs and whether this idea of 'fighting the good fight' is even 'good' at all.

It's not as if the default position is theism in any form as you seem to be advocating.

Clearly I am advocating neither position as the 'default'. I am advocating this;

That atheists learn to use critical thinking in relation to the methods they are currently (and have been historically) employing to put their times and energies into something more productive than wasting those on people who are buried under the weight of their own nonnegotiable faith-based belief systems, and who depend upon being persecuted and hated on account of those nonnegotiable faith-based belief systems, which the atheist is self employed to be the purveyor of.

You can't prove "God" exists above any religion unless you unilateraly declare some known and understood thing to be God. But then it still is your opinion only.

I have done just that in creating the thread;

Is The Planet Earth a better example of GOD than YHWH?
Finding better ideas of GOD.

But lets be clear here. Whether the belief is that 'YHWH is GOD' or the belief is "GODs do not exist", these too are in the same category as "it still is your opinion only".

Do you suppose an individual such as mrhagerty wouldn't have purged an individual such as myself from an apologetic site he controlled?

What I suppose is that if you give the reader the links to those sites along with the relative information and we can each discover for ourselves whether your claims are relevant as good argument that THIS thread subject and my arguments are untrue, as your claim tends to be implying.

However, I acknowledge that it is unlikely that you will provide such data for the reader to follow up on, so on the assumption that you are telling the truth, and did nothing in which to warrant being ejected from those other Christian forums, what is found here, in relation to THIS Christian message board specifically?

Are you expecting to eventually be purged from this message board because of some belief that you are 'fighting the good fight' and as such, your purging is the most likely result you can expect?

Or will the frustration and depression which occurs in you due to the senseless desire to argue with those who hold in their hearts unshakable faith-based nonnegotiable beliefs eventually cause you to lose the plot and get yourself banned as a result, just like it did with your fellow atheist, StuartJ, most recently?

Surely the atheist must be able to see that their efforts to argue against Abrahamic nonnegotiable faith-based beliefs will only lead to the frustration of wasted time under the delusion that in involving themselves in such activity is somehow 'fighting the good fight'.

As to mr,hagerty, he opted to purge himself from this message board. He once wrote in reply to my observations regarding the subject of nonnegotiable faith-based beliefs, that I was trying to 'spoil the fun' atheists and Christians generate through this age-old dynamic.

Fancy that!

Battling just for the 'fun' of it!...The mind boggles. *rolls eyes*.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 11 by William]

All I can say is that if I had recourse to the type of information that I am posting here, I could have spared myself years of grief.

Seems like a waste of thousands of hours of studying on my part to let it go unused now that no one in my immediate peer group is willing to engage.

[William]

[Replying to post 9 by Jagella]

You are merely posting an assertion that atheists debating Christians is counter productive for atheists.

The assertion the OPBlurb is making is that the idea that atheists have is that they are 'fighting the good fight' is false, as the evidence clearly points to. Address that Jagella.

Even that the fact of the matter is that this war has been raging for hundreds of years with no victors in sight, tends toward evidence of the futility of the habitual dynamic.

Then what are you doing in an online forum debating religion if doing so is futile?

My method is simple enough to understand. I identify what are nonnegotiable faith-based beliefs and avoid wasting my time 'debating' with those who hold them.

This does not mean that I think any less of them, or believe that I have to be an atheist and renounce all belief that GODs exist. I see the Abrahmic idea of GOD as part of my overall understanding of 'what is GOD' as I mentioned in a recent post which the reader can access here.

In relation to this thread, and others similar to this which I have created on this message board, my focus is on that.

I now turn my attention onto identifying nonnegotiable beliefs which atheists may hold, which I can and will continue to use on the message board as long as I am able to.

I also acknowledge that we are all here to proselytize our particular positions. Mine is theist in nature, but not based in faith, and is also negotiable.

So while I definitely disagree with the conclusion Christians have reached regarding their NNFBBs, I am not against them in the same way that atheists are against them, and indeed against all theists, because I do not hold the belief that GODs do not exist, even in relation to YHWH.

This has - in the past - annoyed atheists on this board, even to the point where they found it 'necessary' to make claims that I am a 'Christian' because I don't battle against Christian beliefs.

See here and here for evidence re that.

Due to the overall structure of THIS message board, I have opportunity to proselytize my particular opinions without incurring any penalty for doing so.

I am not 'fighting the good fight' or fighting any fight really. I am more into encouraging folk to seek to find common ground and look at the bigger picture.

Which is why I created the sub-forum Around The Camp Fire and invited any like-minded souls to participate.

In any case, we atheists have made tremendous strides against theism. Religion is on the decline in America, Europe, and Australia. We have also won science--our crowning achievement. If current trends continue, some day religion will play only a very minor role in the developed world.

"Some day" eh? I acknowledge your faith-based belief about this. At the same time I wonder how you will think when the sun becomes so hot that it makes life for the majority of humans unbearable, and how you will then feel about your 'atheist based science' which contributed the bulk of invention which enabled the catastrophe to occur and whether you will still be praising it at that point, or kicking yourself for wasting so much time in 'fighting the good fight' which might have been better spent on fighting the actual problems of the world.

As the reader can see, I am not at all convinced that your argument is at all relative to the thread topic.

Maybe those 'Atheists' who 'welcome an audience to read all their debates' are really Christians pretending to be atheist to help that process along?

Such speculation carries little weight.

Maybe not, but what weight it does carry can indeed plant a seed of cautious doubt in the attentive reader. The point I was making is relevant to the thread topic and good enough argument against your own speculation that atheists are 'fighting the good fight' by 'debating' with theist who hold nonnegotiable faith-based beliefs.

If you're right, then Christians should welcome our criticisms.

They do.
They also see it as a direct evidence that they are on the right track because the 'devil is roaring at them like a lion' and 'attacking them as their LORD said would occur'! It is called 'persecution'.

Atheists attend faithfully to that role the Abrahamites expect of them.

Oh really? Then that explains why I was banned from Christian forums: I didn't criticize Christianity enough!

Not at all. You are merely presenting a hearsay. Show the reader your evidence that you were 'banned' on account of being either critical or not critical enough. Chances are good that it was for some other reason, but you just decided to see it differently.

But whatever the reasons might be, one cannot simply take your word for it. Give us the links and we shall see the evidence for ourselves. Otherwise, your argument can be disregarded as hearsay, and irrelevant to the thread topic for that.

In summary, I should point out that your post makes baseless assertions

Yes you should. But you haven't yet even attempted to do this 'pointing out'.

your own activity here belies your claim that the atheist/theist debate is futile.

My claim is that the dynamic atheist/theist 'debate' has nothing to do with the claim that such activity is 'fighting the good fight' and that there is no 'debating' that can happen in relation to nonnegotiable faith-based belief systems.

Address that, if you can.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 10 by William]

Religion has been part of human civilization from the beginning.

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 7 by dio9]

Will atheism make the world a better place or just unhinge it from its theistic base.

It will do neither.

For one who has such an aversion to non-negotiable faith based beliefs, you rely on your own on a regular basis.


Of course they aren't Abrahamic based so they get a pass.

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 7 by dio9]

Will atheism make the world a better place or just unhinge it from its theistic base.

It will do neither.

Aren't you the one who preaches against non-negotiable faith based beliefs?


Of course perhaps this is simply a case of fortune telling and therefore gets a pass.




Tcg

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 10 by William]

Religion has been part of human civilization from the beginning.

I daresay the same can be said of cancer.

[Jagella]

The assertion the OPBlurb is making is that the idea that atheists have is that they are 'fighting the good fight' is false, as the evidence clearly points to. Address that Jagella.

I can address that assertion, but you have failed to post any evidence for it. You need to understand that you have the burden of proof for any assertion you make. I have no burden to prove that assertion wrong.

My method is simple enough to understand. I identify what are nonnegotiable faith-based beliefs and avoid wasting my time 'debating' with those who hold them.

It's amazing that you can know what people will never change their minds. As far as I'm concerned, I just argue what I think is right and let people come to their own conclusions. I hope they will use good reason and evidence to arrive at those conclusions.

"Some day" eh? I acknowledge your faith-based belief about this.

Here's my faith that religion is on the decline in America, on the decline in Europe, and on the decline in Australia.

Read this "faith" and weep!

But if it's any consolation to you, religion worldwide will probably increase. As the developed countries decline in religiosity, poor and backward countries in Africa and Asia will more than make up for the decline of religion in the developed world. I don't think it's anything to crow about, though, losing powerful countries while gaining weaker ones.

So again, it appears that the atheists debating Christians are winning the battle.

At the same time I wonder how you will think when the sun becomes so hot that it makes life for the majority of humans unbearable, and how you will then feel about your 'atheist based science' which contributed the bulk of invention which enabled the catastrophe to occur and whether you will still be praising it at that point, or kicking yourself for wasting so much time in 'fighting the good fight' which might have been better spent on fighting the actual problems of the world.

So you prophesy doom for all humankind and blame us atheists for global warming. I should point out that it was not us atheists who told people to "go forth and multiply" filling the world with billions of people ravaging the environment.

You are merely presenting a hearsay. Show the reader your evidence that you were 'banned' on account of being either critical or not critical enough. Chances are good that it was for some other reason, but you just decided to see it differently.

I'm supposed to prove I was banned from other forums for criticizing their religion? But the burden of proof is your own; you claimed that Christians welcome criticism from atheists, so prove it.

My claim is that the dynamic atheist/theist 'debate' has nothing to do with the claim that such activity is 'fighting the good fight' and that there is no 'debating' that can happen in relation to nonnegotiable faith-based belief systems.

Address that, if you can.

I would address it if it made much sense.

In summary, I should point out that you have posted little if any evidence for your assertion that atheists debating Christians is futile, you have attempted to shift the burden of proof violating the principle of the null hypothesis, and you have unjustifiably blamed atheists for global warming.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 10 by William]

Religion has been part of human civilization from the beginning.

I daresay the same can be said of cancer.

LOL - Apologist Dinesh D'Souza argues that Christianity is great because it is on the increase worldwide. But the same can be said for obesity.

[William]

[Replying to post 17 by Jagella]

I can address that assertion, but you have failed to post any evidence for it. You need to understand that you have the burden of proof for any assertion you make. I have no burden to prove that assertion wrong.

The evidence has been presented. You rejected the evidence out of hand by simply claiming that it wasn't evidence.

End of discussion don't you think?