God and gods

[historia]

I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

Questions for debate: Is this quote accurate? Is the difference between the concept of God and the concept of gods simply a difference in number (one vs. many)? When atheists and skeptics combine the two into the short-hand "God(s)," are they making a category error?

[wiploc]

Classical atheism is the belief or doctrine that there is no God. The classical atheist has come to a specific and reasoned belief in the non-existence of any kind god,

Some of us have, sure. But some of us just believe what we were told. Some of us have a vague and unreasoning belief.

Anybody who believes that no gods exist -- for whatever reason -- is a strong atheist (what you'd call a classical atheist).

and therefore rejected beliefs that contradict his core doctrine. Similarly, a Christian (or any monotheist) has come to a specific and reasoned belief there is one and only one genuine God, and therefore rejected beliefs that contradict his core doctrine.

Again, people get to be Christians for all kinds of reasons.

Modern or new atheism lack belief in all gods. This is not a core belief like the classical atheist, but a lack of a core belief about God. The new atheist has not rejected the existence of God because he has found some greater truth, but claims to only lack belief because of insufficient evidence.

Many modern atheists are strong atheists. We believe that gods do not exist.

What we mean when we use the unmodified word "atheist" is that we aren't theists. Some of us modern atheists believe that gods do not exist, and others don't believe either way.

[William]

If one real GOD can play the role of every imagined one, and in doing so connect with the individuals beliefs systems in a real and meaningful manner, (as far as the individual believes) then one real GOD can effectively make all imagined GODs 'real' too.

In my mind, I think that all organised religions were initiated by that process, when they were but small cults and gained following and eventually institutionalized.

[1213]

....The reasons Christians, for example, doubt any gods except their own gods are probably very similar to why atheists doubt the Christian god. ...

I have not seen any evidence for that assumption.

[Tcg]

I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

Questions for debate: Is this quote accurate? Is the difference between the concept of God and the concept of gods simply a difference in number (one vs. many)? When atheists and skeptics combine the two into the short-hand "God(s)," are they making a category error?

As many others have pointed out, calling theists, "atheists", because they reject some gods, but not others doesn't make much sense. A person only needs to believe in one god to not qualify as an atheist.


The second part makes more sense, but I don't think is very helpful. Theists think that their god/gods are extra special and therefore different from all the others. They don't see their god/gods as being equivalent to the others and therefore can't understand why some don't believe in it/them.


Perhaps it is better to say they have trouble accepting why some don't accept their god/gods. All too often they chalk it up to a moral issue. Oddly, they don't view their rejection of the gods that aren't theirs as a moral issue. Hypocritical, but understandable given how strongly they rely on their god/gods. To understand that some individuals have examined the claims concerning their god/gods and found them lacking, because in fact they are, has to be more than unsettling given that their god/gods supply so much for them.


Godchecker.com provides some rather good insight into the situation:

Our legendary mythology encyclopedia now includes nearly four thousand weird and wonderful Gods, Supreme Beings, Demons, Spirits and Fabulous Beasts from all over the world.

http://www.godchecker.com/

It should be no surprise that god/gods come into favor and then eventually fade into obscurity. Obviously, most human groups latch onto a new god/gods rather than ditching the concept altogether. It shouldn't shock anyone however when some humans simply don't buy into the whole rotating god/gods system. We've simply stepped off the merry go round. This shouldn't threaten those still enjoying their ride.




Tcg

[historia]

The reasons Christians, for example, doubt any gods except their own gods are probably very similar to why atheists doubt the Christian god. Christians then are inconsistent in what gods they believe in and which gods they don't believe in.

Theists think that their god/gods are extra special and therefore different from all the others. They don't see their god/gods as being equivalent to the others and therefore can't understand why some don't believe in it/them.

I think these assertions are wrong at a conceptual level.

According to Merriam Webster, "God" (capitalized) is "the supreme or ultimate reality," while a "god" (lowercase) is "a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship."

These are radically different concepts. "God," according to Judaism, Christianity, Islam, some forms of Hinduism, and much of ancient pagan philosophy, is not an object or being within the cosmos, but rather the ultimate source of all existence that transcends the created order. The "gods," by contrast, do not transcend nature, but rather are thought to have emerged from it. They are conceived of as just higher or more powerful beings within the created order.

Our reasons for believing (or not believing) in either are also radically different. Since the "gods" (and fairies and leprechauns and the like) are conceived of as objects within the cosmos, residing, say, at Mount Olympus or some other locale, they are (in principle anyway) open to the same type of observation and verification that we might apply to any other object within the universe. God, by contrast, transcends the universe, and can only be inferred from philosophical and logical deductions, or possibly spiritual experiences, if we allow for such insights.

This is a well-known distinction that has been made since at least the time of the ancient Greek philosophers.

And that is why the quote in the OP is simply wrong. The atheist's reasons for rejecting belief in God is fundamentally different from the Christian's rejection of belief in the gods. These are different concepts resting on different epistemological foundations. Roberts (and many other contemporary atheists with him) has erroneously collapsed these two different concepts into a single category.

[Zzyzx]

.
[Replying to post 15 by historia]

How is 'inside vs. outside the cosmos' argument different from saying, 'My imagination is better than your / their imagination'?

[historia]

How is 'inside vs. outside the cosmos' argument different from saying, 'My imagination is better than your / their imagination'?

What do you mean by "My imagination is better than your imagination"?

[Zzyzx]

.

How is 'inside vs. outside the cosmos' argument different from saying, 'My imagination is better than your / their imagination'?

What do you mean by "My imagination is better than your imagination"?

The God of Abrahamic Religions is imagined by adherents to transcend the created order

The gods of other religions are imagined (by Apologists) to not transcend nature

Therefore, My god is better / bigger than your god

Neither have been shown / demonstrated to be anything other than creations of human imagination.

[William]

I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

Questions for debate: Is this quote accurate? Is the difference between the concept of God and the concept of gods simply a difference in number (one vs. many)? When atheists and skeptics combine the two into the short-hand "God(s)," are they making a category error?

Q: Is this quote accurate?

The quote/argument can be argued against as not being accurate to the way the Theist I Am, understands GODs.
However, in relation to other ways Theists understand GODs, it might be accurate, depending on how the word 'atheist' is believed to mean, by the individual.
But even then, it is a bit of a stretch.


Q: Is the difference between the concept of God and the concept of gods simply a difference in number (one vs. many)?

The Theist I Am decides that there are indeed many aspects to the One GOD. I call those aspects GODs specifically to note that I do not regards them as merely 'gods'.

Some aspects of GOD (iow "The GODs") appear to the Theist Human Being, to be separate from GOD - or separate from "The Wholeness of GOD" generally due to the fact that form exists, and Human Beings happen to be within form which makes it difficult for us to see this from the Wholeness Perspective of GOD.

Also, some Humans cannot understand how a Whole GOD can work within an environment which allows for the potential of evil, without somehow being corrupted by that potential evil, because GOD cannot be both evil and a GOD at the same time. This further serves to assist thoughts and subsequent beliefs and subsequent expressions of separatism.

It is natural enough for Humans to think this way, but still unnecessary for Humans to do so, when other ways of thinking are available.

[Jagella]

I think these assertions are wrong at a conceptual level.

We should keep in mind that the "concept" of a god varies with the individual both without and within Christianity. I think there may be at least as many gods as there are theists! There really are no universal theological authorities within Christendom that speak for all Christians although some authorities like the Vatican and the Watchtower may claim to be such authorities. As a result, it is important to avoid any naive, simplistic generalizations of what either Christians or pagans believe about their gods or the reasons they cite to believe in those gods.

According to Merriam Webster, "God" (capitalized) is "the supreme or ultimate reality," while a "god" (lowercase) is "a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship."

These are radically different concepts.

They're really not that "radically" different. The "supreme being" of Christianity has natural attributes and powers and requires worship like most other gods.

Our reasons for believing (or not believing) in either are also radically different. Since the "gods" (and fairies and leprechauns and the like) are conceived of as objects within the cosmos, residing, say, at Mount Olympus or some other locale, they are (in principle anyway) open to the same type of observation and verification that we might apply to any other object within the universe. God, by contrast, transcends the universe, and can only be inferred from philosophical and logical deductions, or possibly spiritual experiences, if we allow for such insights.

The god of the Bible is often described as being within the physical world and moves from one place to another. Moses had to meet Yahweh on Mount Sinai like he would need to meet Zeus on Mount Olympus, so Yahweh had to be on Mount Sinai for Moses to meet him there. So what you've posted here is a false difference. The Christian god is very similar to pagan gods especially in the person of Jesus.

The atheist's reasons for rejecting belief in God is fundamentally different from the Christian's rejection of belief in the gods.

I don't believe in the Christian god because the idea seems false to me. It is alien to my way of thinking which is to say it doesn't fit into my view of reality. I know of no good reasons to believe the Christian god exists beyond the imaginations of Christians. As I see it, the Christian god is the creation of people either out of ignorance or deliberate deception.

Now, keeping in mind what I've posted above, can you say your reasons for doubting any god aside from the Christian god differ from what I just posted? If you or other Christians have similar reasons for doubting pagan gods, then Stephen F. Roberts is right! Many Christians don't believe in pagan gods for the same reasons atheists don't believe in the Christian god.