New Covenant

[tryme]

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 39 by myth-one.com]

And we must be born again of God as a spirit.

It's really that simple.

All we have to do now is be born again of the Spirit.

It's our choice.

Yes, but we remain human; we do not become "a spirit".

How can we "do now" what you say does not take place until our resurrection?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 37 by shnarkle]

This doesn't negate your idea that those who are begotten spiritually will one day receive spiritual bodies, but it certainly refutes your idea that this only happens once one has discarded their physical body.

I have quoted this because it includes a word seldom used, if at all, in the exchange that has been occurring between you and myth.

That word is "begotten".

You see, this is relevant for you two, as the Greek for being "born" is equally well translated "begotten".

To be born, anyone has to have first been begotten, after which there is growth to a sufficient extent to be able to be born alive and well.

For now, I leave it up to each of you to factor this into your understanding.

Peace.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 39 by myth-one.com]

If Nicodemus had been born as a dog into the physical world, could he ever be born again of the Spirit?

No. Straw man argument. Jesus wasn't taking to a dog. He was talking to someone who had already been born physically in the flesh. You are ignoring your own false claims as well as my clear refutation of them. Nicodemus thought Jesus was saying to him ( a human being) that he must be born again by climbing back into his mother's womb. Jesus would never have reinforced that idea by saying, " We must be born as humans first,..." This is what you posted. There is no need to say we must be born as humans first when the person he is speaking to has already been born as a human. To make that statement is to assume that he isn't human. Do you see how you're making my points for me now?

My answer would be no, only mankind can be born again of the Spirit.

Therefore Jesus is telling Nicodemus he isn't a human being, but must be born as a human being first. This is the logical conclusion to your own claims.

This is what Jesus is saying. Our first birth must be into the physical world as a man or woman.

So when do you suppose this first birth will occur for you? When do you suppose Nicodemus underwent this first birth as a man or woman?

For any man or woman to gain everlasting life in the spiritual world, that man or woman must be born of the Spirit as a spirit into the spiritual world.

No one is arguing otherwise. You're repeating yourself. How about getting back to the topic at hand, and explaining how a man or woman must be born physically as a man or woman, or how what most people would assume are men and woman really aren't men or women at all, but really just dogs.

When the word "spirit" is capitalized in the verses, it refers to God.

That's the translator's interpretation. They didn't write the original copies using capitalization.

So that we must be born of the flesh (another human) as flesh -- birth one.

Oh, now we must be born again as another human being? News to me. When did this theory become popular?

All we have to do now is be born again of the Spirit.

It's our choice.

Oh, now it's our choice to be born? Really? So you had a choice to be born physically? Probably not, but Jesus uses the analogy of being born because that idea so obviously conveys the idea that we have a choice to be born spiritually? Sorry, but you're digging your way into a hole you will never be able to find your way out of.

Those who are born physically have no choice in the matter, and those who are born spiritually have no choice in the matter as well. Those who are born physically, are spiritually dead as you have already correctly pointed out, and those who are spiritually dead are incapable of choosing anything spiritual. They are clueless to where the Spirit comes from or where it is going. It is only the regenerated heart that is capable of repenting and choosing to accept Christ as lord and savior.

The carnally minded lost sinner can choose to accept Christ as lord and savior, but he can't back up his decision with anything but a life of sin. Sorry, but to sin is to reject Christ's commandments.

The best thing you can do to understand the reality is to study Paul's letter to the Romans because his doctrine of election is not about us electing to follow God, but God electing us as vessels of mercy. Once you see the difference, you should begin to see what's really going on, and that it isn't about our choice. As Jesus says, "You didn't choose me, but I chose you."

What you've done is to place yourself in the camp of the rich young ruler who is making his own choices to attain salvation. The Father isn't drawing him. When Christ says to someone, "Follow me", they have been chosen to follow. There is no choice. To claim that they have a choice is to assume that they would choose death over life. Sorry, but that's what is known as a "no-brainer". One doesn't have to think about it.

What you don't seem to see is the fact that we've all chosen death by our lives of sin. We alredy know what a mess that has turned out to be so when see life eternal revealed, there is no other option to choose. How does one choose what one has already chosen? In all reality that isn't even a choice either as it was chosen for us. We didn't have the option to choose life until it was revealed. Again, it's a no brainer. It's like claiming you have a choice to pump your own heart muscle. Salvation is an autonomous reaction. There's nothing one can do to stop it.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 37 by shnarkle]

This doesn't negate your idea that those who are begotten spiritually will one day receive spiritual bodies, but it certainly refutes your idea that this only happens once one has discarded their physical body.

I have quoted this because it includes a word seldom used, if at all, in the exchange that has been occurring between you and myth.

That word is "begotten".

You see, this is relevant for you two, as the Greek for being "born" is equally well translated "begotten".

To be born, anyone has to have first been begotten, after which there is growth to a sufficient extent to be able to be born alive and well.

For now, I leave it up to each of you to factor this into your understanding.

Peace.

I've used the word a number of times intentionally. In the Greek the word is the same, but it can be used of both the father and the mother. Nicodemus uses it of the mother in being born while Jesus uses it of the father in begetting. Myth seems to favor Nicodemus' interpretation for some unknown reason.

A quick review of my posts should alert you to the fact that I am not ignorant of the difference between begetting and birth, but it's good to know there are others who are aware of these differences as well as the influence it has on proper interpretation.

[PinSeeker]

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 30 by PinSeeker]

...shut off from the presence of the Lord means death. The lord is life itself.

Right, but it does not mean ceasing to exist.

A distinction with no effective difference.

Yes, it is a very stark distinction. You are arguing that the second death is a cessation of existence. That's very much incorrect. Jesus talks extensively of hell in the sense of being a very real place were folks exist outside of the presence of God. Now. If you want to say -- and maybe this is what you are saying -- that folks in hell do in fact exist, but do not have true Life, then I'd be with you on that.

I've received forgiveness for my sins, I've received Jesus as my Savior and my King, and I've received the gift of faith and new life in the Spirit. In short, I've been born again. Every Christian with a truly regenerate heart has been.

Interesting assertions. If Jesus is your king, then you presumably obey his commandments, correct?

Well, I try, but as is the case with every other follower of Christ in this life, I fall short. I sin.

New life in the Spirit necessarily means that you will never sin.

Ultimately -- eventually, when we are truly glorified -- that will be true. But in this life, that's sadly not the case. This is the now-and-the-not-yet of the Gospel. We can live now as if we no longer sin, because our identity is in Christ, but it is not yet the case that we are fully free from sin.

If you think otherwise, then I would direct you to Hebrews 10:26 where the author plainly points out a fundamental aspect of the law which Christ came to fulfill, i.e. those who sin willfully are not covered by Christ's sacrifice under the new covenant. The new covenant is guaranteed by God himself to a life of perfect obedience to his commandments.

Ah, yes, Hebrews 10. Awesome piece of Scripture. The key word there is 'willfully.' This necessarily infers that in this life, followers of Christ -- and I'm being careful not to use the term 'Christian(s)' because it apparently offends you so much -- still sin, but but not willfully. Paul says it so well in Romans 7 -- we still yet do the things we know we should not do, and we fail to do the things we know we should not do. So we join with him in acknowledging our wretchedness and long for the day when we will truly and finally be set free from the sin that dwells in us.

As Paul points out those who "walk after the Spirit do not fulfill the lust of the flesh". In other words, they don't sin.

Well, they don't sin... willfully. But they do fall (far) short of perfection in this life; they -- we -- still sin. I think you're in Galatians 5 here (correct me if I'm wrong), and Paul is describing the war within between the flesh and the Spirit; he is saying that the only way to conquer the flesh is to yield to the Spirit to keep us from doing the things we naturally want to do (the desires of the flesh). This necessarily implies that we still struggle against the flesh, and drawing back on what he said in Romans 7, we still succumb to these desires far more than we should, ergo, we sin. We know we shouldn't, but we still fall to temptation from time to time, ergo, we are not sinless... yet. Here again is the now-and-the-not-yet of the Gospel. Christ's atonement on the cross secured our salvation (those of us in Christ, anyway), but we need the direction and empowerment of the Holy Spirit... to make decisions and choices according to His guidance and to act with the spiritual power that the Spirit supplies.

Okay, I'm going to quote you here, but add some clarfications in bold caps:

• Those who continue to sin WILLFULLY due to their own insistence to work their way into heaven fail...

• ALL OF US STILL must continue to rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover OUR sins.

• Those believers who continue to sin WILLFULLY have not been "begotten from above" spiritually. They are not yet regenerated; THUS THEY ARE NOT (AT LEAST NOT YET) TRUE BELIEVERS.

if a person is really concerned about being born again, and knows he needs to repent of his sins and believe on Christ, than that is evidence that his heart is truly regenerate of God by His Spirit.

Nope.

Yep:

No one can repent of their sins without having it given to them in the first place. Repentance is a gift from God, and the carnal mind may think they are repenting, but repentance has then become a work rather than a gift, and no one can be redeemed until they have been given the gift of repentance which then allows them to repent from all their damnable righteous works.

This is exactly what I'm saying. If one recognizes his need for the Savior for his salvation, That's a good sign that God has opened his blind eyes, unstopped his ears, made (or is making) the lame to leap like a deer, and made (or is making) the tongue of the mute to shout for joy (Isaiah 35). It is a good sign that God has at least begun His good work in the man. And, as you must know, He Who began a good work in him (you) will -- will -- bring it to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6).

There are plenty of people who become obessesed with being born again, and their need for repentance, and this compels them to sin all the more. They are vessels fitted for destruction. The gospel compels some to repent while compelling others to sin. Everyone is not given ears to hear the gospel.

The Gospel doesn't "compel" anyone to sin. The sinful nature does that. For that matter, the Gospel doesn't compel anyone to repent; the new nature, given by the Spirit, does that. The Gospel is a call to repentance, issued to all. But only those whom the Spirit quickens -- gives spiritual life -- respond to that call. Those that He doesn't quicken do not respond to the Gospel; these are the vessels fitted for destruction, the ones created for common use rather than honorable use. Yes, yes, Romans 9... love that passage.

there are many who don't truly repent of their sin and deceive themselves.

Yep, the road is wide, and one need look no further than their own mirror to see the chief sinner.

Do you think there are folks walking around today who are sinless?

Yes...

You are sadly mistaken. That doesn't mean you're not a Christian, but you're underestimating what sin is.

Speak for yourself.

I AM speaking for myself! And you, and all human beings. All we like sheep have gone astray, each to his own way. All fall short of the glory of God. None of us, in this life, are free from sin; far from it.

I don't know what's in anyone else's heart so I don't need to judge them. I know what's in my heart though, and if it is judgement that is emanating from my heart, then there's a problem.

Nobody is "judging" anybody. As if they really could, anyway; only God is truly able to judge. But God has told us what is in the heart of every mortal man: sin. Which, in His time -- for those whom He has chosen -- He will overcome and rid us of, because of the work of His Son, Jesus, on the cross. And we can live now as if it is past tense and is already the case, because, though we still sin, our identity is in Christ our Savior, and, as He said on the cross Himself, "It is finished!"

Regeneration is about seeing that grace doesn't allow me to sin with impunity anymore. It conforms everyone to the image of Christ, even the hill billy tossing garbage out the window of is 4 x 4 pickup truck. When those born of the Spirit see Christ in everyone they meet, the gospel is proclaimed. The hill billy will then see that he has infinite worth in a world that is precious and sacred. The guy looking for pole position will be content with sitting in back of the pack.

Here's another example of what happens as you are conformed to Christ. Let's say you have some puppies. They're cute and adorable. You love them, but they chew on the furniture. They pee on the carpet. They fight with each other. Some people get bent out of shape completely and beat their dogs, but they're obviously depraved. Most people's first reaction is something along the lines of an admission that they need to pay more attention to their puppies's house training, but cleaning up after them is an act of love. They would rather clean up after their pets than lose them.

It's the same with children. You love your children while you're cleaning their dirty diapers. You love them while you're breaking up a squabble between them. You may even look at them while they're fighting and have nothing but overflowing love for them. That's what happens when the love of Christ spreads to rush hour traffic. You see the silly self absorbed fool struggling for pole position only to end up right beside you at the next light.

You're preaching to the choir, here. Perhaps you've just been misunderstanding what I've been saying, or reading too much into it, or something like that to some degree all along.

When we can see ourselves doing the same thing, we grow out of it, and see that they're not really such a bad person after all. We've been forgiven, and this compels us to forgive others to the point where we don't even notice the transgressions of others.

Well, we try to "grow out of it," because we are driven back to repentance... led to repentance by God via His Spirit. And remember that all are made in the image of God, and that we are just as much a sinner, albeit in different ways, as they. And in recognizing the transgressions of others, we are then able to forgive and have mercy, just as God has forgiven and had mercy on us.

There is no need to forgive what has been covered by God. Christ died for those who are yet still sinning.

No, there is most assuredly need for continual confession, sorrow, and repentance even for those of us who are in Christ. Thanks be to God that He is faith and just to forgive all our sin.

His sacrifice covers it all, and those who are begotten of God reflect God, not the fallen world around them.

Well, Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for all, but only effectual for those whom God has chosen. Never should it be said that Christ's work of atonement is only partially successful. Maybe that's not what you're saying, but that's how it looks in print.

Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

There is only one "type of being, . . .

The scriptures identify two types of beings, natural and spiritual:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

The scriptures are the inspired words of God:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (II Timothy 3:16)

Did God get that one wrong?

[PinSeeker]

There is only one "type of being, . . .

The scriptures identify two types of beings, natural and spiritual:

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

The scriptures are the inspired words of God:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (II Timothy 3:16)

Did God get that one wrong?

Nope. You're reading Paul's words (yes, inspired by God) wrong. It's not two different bodies, but the two natures of the one body. Read the first part of that very verse (44)! IT is sown a natural body, IT is raised a spiritual body; in other words, IT -- the one body -- now contains two natures. In Paul's own words, the natural body is the Old Man (the sinful nature), and the spiritual body is the New Man (the Spiritual nature). We are struggling to put off the former and to put on the latter. Paul says:

• "...in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth." Ephesians 4:22-24

And:

• "Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience, and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them. But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth. Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him.." Colossians 3:5-10

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 47 by PinSeeker]

[quote="1 Corinthians 15:35]But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?[/quote]
Here's is Paul's answer:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

Paul wrote First Corinthians as a letter to the Christians at Corinth. So he is addressing Christians regarding the future resurrection of their bodies at the Second Coming..

"It" in these refers to the dead and buried physical Christian bodies.

[FWI]

[Replying to post 14 by PinSeeker]

The list goes on and on.

I reviewed your initial list and encountered issues related to them. The statements are predicated on a belief that the Christ pre-existed…This reality is not introduced by Moses, in the Torah. The most intriguing one is #5. Where, the suggested similarities between the Christ and Leviticus are not actually present…A review of the sin offerings in Leviticus are quite interesting: For the anointed priest the sacrifice was a bull and the body was cut-up and completely burned (For the Israelite community the same procedure was performed). For a leader (princes/kings), the sacrifice was a male goat without defect and all the fat was burned. An individual was required to offer a female goat or female lamb without blemish, where the fat was also burned (Lev. Chapter 4). None of these requirements are related to the Christ…Also, in all the sacrifices that were commanded in Leviticus, the killing of the offering was merciful and quick. This was not the case for the "murder" of the Christ.

No, there was/is no Plan B, because there was never any need. God's people did continually fail, and God had to continually bring them back, as it were, but nothing ever "didn't work as planned." The one Plan of redemption was always unfolding in better and better ways and finally was revealed in the Person of Jesus, Who was always the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

The reality that man has free-will requires "adjustments," especially when man fails to obey God's instructions. The endgame of God's plan is surely assured. But, many readjustments are apparent in the scriptures. Where, Jeremiah 31:31-34 is just one of them. The human path, for the most part, is not pre-planned…

When, the book of Genesis is reviewed, it is clear that the idea of the Christ did not come into play, until the time of Abraham. This was about 2000 years after God renewed the planet earth and restored life on it. Where, during this time period, it became obvious that evil desires had affected almost all and God decided to kill most of the life on the planet (So, are you suggesting that this was always planned?). Hence, in the latter part of Genesis 12:3, God declares that: "all the peoples of the earth will be blessed through you (Abraham)" or as understood: his descendant. This did not occur, until (about) another 2000 years later, with the birth of the Christ. So, in a sense: God does not want to know the circumstances of an event, in the beginning or middle of them. Thus, it seems that they were evaluated, at or near the end of them.

Pentecost marked the beginning of the Holy Spirit's ministry on earth. The Holy Spirit is our "helper," Who helps us continue Jesus's work, carrying the Gospel to the ends of the earth. It is a continuation of God's one Plan of Redemption, which will come to completion in the fullness of time.

This is a "questionable" biblical concept, which is only assumed and shows a misunderstanding of the scriptures…The Holy Spirit is the power of God and not independent of Him or a separate personage. It is also referenced as: the Spirit of God, in both the Jewish and Christian scriptures. There are even scriptures, which alludes to the spirit of the Christ and the spirit of the Antichrist, as well as, the spirit of man. Yet, there are no bible verses which refer to: the spirit of the Spirit…

The millennium of Revelation 20 is not a literal 1000-year period. It should be understood in the same sort of light as the cattle on a thousand hills being the Lord's (Psalm 50), or a thousand years in God's sight are as yesterday when it passes by (Psalm 90). The number 1000 is the Biblical number of completeness. So, the millennium of Revelation 20 is properly understood as "the fullness of God's time," so the millennium is, to us, an indeterminate amount of time -- from Jesus's ascension and the Holy Spirit's coming (Acts 1 and 2) to the time of Jesus's return. God's Kingdom is here now -- Jesus said that several times -- but only not in its fullness. Jesus will usher in the Kingdom in its fullness when He returns.

Firstly, if God's Kingdom is on this earth now, this would contradict many bible verses and many would lose hope that "peace on earth" is real! Even, the religious would have doubts! However, this concept is actually derived from the heaven or hell belief system. I say this because, if we believe in the heaven or hell doctrine, we would need to reject the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead and if we reject the doctrine of the resurrection, we reject the Christ's resurrection and have no hope (1 Cor. 15)…The heaven or hell doctrine also assumes that anyone who doesn't accept the Christ is lost. Yes, there are several attempts to get around this fact, but the reality remains. Therefore, salvation can only be accomplished with the resurrection of the dead (Rev. 20) to physical life again. Then, "most" will have the opportunity to learn the true religion of God (everybody can't be right, but they all think they are…) and accept the Christ for who he really is.

Right, but there really is only one Decree. Much can be said of that, and we can discuss it if you like, but for now, I would direct you to Chapter 3 of the Westminster Confession of Faith for further understanding of it.

A decree is an authoritative order having legal force. There are numerous decrees throughout the bible, just as I said.

Respectfully, I am not interested in private personal interacting sessions, nor printed material that disagrees with my own views. Hence, how God is perceived, is the most important belief an individual can have. Unfortunately, our views are on the opposite ends of the spectrum…