Can we find evidence of a good Jehovah?

[marco]

God's anger fills the pages of the OT and his rage destroys many. Yet some believe Jehovah was gentle, merciful... a thoroughly just and good God. We could WISH he was but if we read his biograpjical details we woud find it very hard to conclude he's a nice being.


It is remarkably simple to find evidence of nastiness, savagery and spite. But can we redeem God in any way, and find convincing evidence that he's good and merciful FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT?

[Zzyzx]

.

If one looks at Israel, one could see evidence of a people known to be victims of a Holocaust who have been able to invest in themselves regardless of what kind of idea of GOD they followed after, who put them through their paces and showed them how to rise above the state of victim-hood.

An alternative view:

Israel is an artificial state imposed in 1948 by victors of WWII on an existing Arab nation

Citizens of the new state were European Jews (heavily Russian). Those people had NO connection to the Middle East other than to follow a religion that originated there. There was not an ancestral tie to the land.

That Jews dominated the area 2000 years ago is not adequate justification to impose the Jewish state on that region.

[William]

William: If one looks at Israel, one could see evidence of a people known to be victims of a Holocaust who have been able to invest in themselves regardless of what kind of idea of GOD they followed after, who put them through their paces and showed them how to rise above the state of victim-hood.

Zzyzx: An alternative view:

Israel is an artificial state imposed in 1948 by victors of WWII on an existing Arab nation

William: True that, apart form the 'artificial' bit. If one is to claim that the actions of victors of war are 'artificial', the argument would have to extend to - for example - The USA...
My point was that Israel as a State, has achieved a great deal of good even surrounded by enemies and that Jews do not separate from one another even that the diaspora made every attempt to make it that way.


Zzyzx: Citizens of the new state were European Jews (heavily Russian). Those people had NO connection to the Middle East other than to follow a religion that originated there. There was not an ancestral tie to the land.

William: That is a sadly bigoted view. The connection to the area was never forgotten, and according to a Jew, a Jew is a Jew, regardless of what area they came back from...they were a people dispossessed of their homeland by the Romans and dispersed into other lands which belonged to other cultures, and often were treated as foreign and despised. My point in relation to the OPQ was that they are evidence of a people who know what it is like to suffer being the victim - even of their GOD - but have learned to rise above the state of victimhood and show the world an actual example of how a people can achieve much even under extreme adversity.

Marco also missed that - in real history - evidence. This is because the focus is on stories in the bible involving Jehovah rather than on actual known history involving Jehovah, which is the point I am making.

Zzyzx: That Jews dominated the area 2000 years ago is not adequate justification to impose the Jewish state on that region.

William: The Jews lived there and had been living there for hundreds of years. 2000 years ago it was actually the Romans who dominated the area. One could use your words to state "That Romans dominated the area 2000 years ago is not adequate justification to impose the Jewish diaspora in that region." Yet, to the victor go the spoils. Why complain that this shouldn't be the case because the spoils are going to 'The Jews'?

[1213]

...
The question was: can we find evidence of a good Jehovah? ....

I dont think you can find, but I have found that all good things in my life are from God. Especially I think that He has given the wisdom that can be found from the Bible, makes Him good in my opinion.

[ttruscott]

God's anger fills the pages of the OT and his rage destroys many. Yet some believe Jehovah was gentle, merciful... a thoroughly just and good God. We could WISH he was but if we read his biograpjical details we woud find it very hard to conclude he's a nice being.


It is remarkably simple to find evidence of nastiness, savagery and spite. But can we redeem God in any way, and find convincing evidence that he's good and merciful FROM THE OLD TESTAMENT?

HE is good and merciful to HIS family and savage with rage at HIS enemies who murder, plunder, rape and pillage HIS family when they are vulnerable. Would you really smile meekly at your family's enemies and offer them another daughter to eat?

In all the times I have challenged you to tell us where you stand on the side of righteous justice have you ever acquiesced to the necessity of justice? Your sophisticated word play hides a multitude of errors...

[Tcg]

HE is good and merciful to HIS family and savage with rage at HIS enemies who murder, plunder, rape and pillage HIS family when they are vulnerable.

This PR spin doesn't hold up under even the most casual scrutiny. I've never murdered, plundered, raped, or pillaged anyone and yet I am considered an enemy of your God.


The reason? I am not convinced that the version of God known as Jehovah exists. If such a beast exists, it is a petty self-centered god who possesses such a fragile ego that it can't stand the fact that some would dare to not accept the existence of a petty self-centered god.



Tcg

[ttruscott]

Job's first ten children certainly couldn't. The next set of ten might view God differently. Of course when the story of Job is told, we are to marvel how merciful God was to Job. We are to ignore the fact that his first ten children never got to enjoy God's blessing. Presumably, the second set were able to ignore the absence of the seven brothers and thee sisters they never had the chance to meet.

What is your proof that HE did not bless them by taking them home from this place of suffering? Perhaps before they were born they even made an agreement with YHWH that they would live good blessed lives with Job and then get out early with a quick death?

Your derogatory pov shows more of a hostility to YHWH in the story of Job than it does any understanding of GOD's methods with HIS people. Everyone dies. When, where and how are all hidden to us yet ordered by GOD and everything, even death, works for our good.

I contend that HE would NOT have used Job to lure Satan into exposing the depths of his evil by monstering the most holy old man on earth just because YHWH liked him UNLESS Job had acquiesced to doing this onerous job before it happened.

Why would I suggest this? Because I know YHWH and I know scripture about YHWH and I know HIS character would never allow HIM to do otherwise whereas your interpretation of the story is far far darker.

[Zzyzx]

.

An alternative view:

Israel is an artificial state imposed in 1948 by victors of WWII on an existing Arab nation

True that, apart form the 'artificial' bit. If one is to claim that the actions of victors of war are 'artificial', the argument would have to extend to - for example - The USA

Agreed. There are many examples of artificial states created by victors of wars " example: artificial states created from the defeated Ottoman Empire.

My point was that Israel as a State, has achieved a great deal of good

Exactly what good has been accomplished by Israel?

even surrounded by enemies

Taking over land occupied by others and establishing a state is likely to create enemies all around.

and that Jews do not separate from one another even that the diaspora made every attempt to make it that way.

People of the Jewish religion are dispersed over much of the world. How, exactly, are they not separated?

There is separation regarding Israel, even within the religion of Judaism. Many Jews are Anti-Zionists

The anti-Zionist world-view of the ultra-Orthodox groups Neturei Karta and Satmar Hasidism perceives Zionism and the establishment of the State of Israel as an anti-messianic act, conceived and born from sin. These groups vigorously deny the very legitimacy of the collective political return to the Holy Land and to Jewish sovereignty. For them, this is the handiwork of humans, violating the Jewish peoples oath of political quietism.

In the words of the (as expounded by Rashi), the people were adjured not to return collectively to the Land of Israel by the exertion of physical force, nor to rebel against the nations of the world, nor to hasten the End. In short, they were required to wait for the heavenly, complete, miraculous, supernatural, and meta-historical redemption that is totally distinct from the realm of human endeavor. This waiting over two millennia manifests the very essence and singularity of the Jewish people, expressing their faith in divine providence, in the assurance of the prophets, and in messianic destiny.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/articl ... i-zionist/

Also see: http://zionism-israel.com/his/jewish_anti_zionism.htm
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/an ... among-jews
http://www.ijan.org/

Citizens of the new state were European Jews (heavily Russian). Those people had NO connection to the Middle East other than to follow a religion that originated there. There was not an ancestral tie to the land.

That is a sadly bigoted view.

What was the settlers connection to the Middle East OTHER than religion?

The connection to the area was never forgotten, and according to a Jew, a Jew is a Jew, regardless of what area they came back from

WHAT was the connection to the land by people from Europe, Russia, and the US?

they were a people dispossessed of their homeland by the Romans and dispersed into other lands which belonged to other cultures,

Jews / Israelites initially took land by conquest; Romans took over by conquest. Might makes right " agreed?

Is conquest by Jews more noble than conquest by Romans?

After the death of Moses Joshua leads the Jewish people for 28 years.2 The Book of Joshua describes the seven years of conquest and seven years of settlement of the Land of Israel. After the land is conquered is divided into separate tribal portions via a divinely guided lottery. The Book of Joshua also describes the Biblical boundaries of the Land Of Israel.
At this time the so-called Promised Land is bounded by the Egyptian empire to the south and the Mesopotamia to the north. But it is not ruled by either of them. In fact, there is no one power ruling this section of land, rather it is settled by seven Canaanite tribes who inhabit 31 fortified city-states scattered all over the map, each ruled by its own king.
(Jericho is one of these city-states, so is Ai, so is Jerusalem, where Canaanite tribesmen called Jebusites dwell.)
Before they enter the land, the Jewish people send an envoy to the Canaanites with the message, God, the Creator of the Universe has promised this land to our forefathers. We are now here to claim our inheritance, and we ask you to leave peacefully.
Needless to say most of the Canaanites dont. (Only one tribe takes the offer and leaves.)
Meanwhile, Joshua has clear instructions from God that if the Canaanites dont get out, the Jews must wipe them out, because if they remain in the land they are going to corrupt the Jews. It is made clear that the Canaanites are extremely immoral and idolatrous people and the Jews cannot live with them as neighbors.
https://www.simpletoremember.com/articl ... he_promis/

Notice: God, the Creator of the Universe has promised this land to our forefathers. We are now here to claim our inheritance, and we ask you to leave peacefully.

and often were treated as foreign and despised.

Is this to claim that the ancestors of Europeans, Russians, and Americans who migrated to Israel had lived in The Holy Land 2000 years ago?

Kindly provide readers with verifiable evidence.

My point in relation to the OPQ was that they are evidence of a people who know what it is like to suffer being the victim - even of their GOD - but have learned to rise above the state of victimhood and show the world an actual example of how a people can achieve much even under extreme adversity.

It is not uncommon for religious groups to claim victim-hood (even when they are in the majority " as evidenced by US Christians playing the victim / persecuted card while claiming 70% majority.

Marco also missed that - in real history - evidence. This is because the focus is on stories in the bible involving Jehovah rather than on actual known history involving Jehovah, which is the point I am making.

Kindly provide references to actual known history of Jehovah.

That Jews dominated the area 2000 years ago is not adequate justification to impose the Jewish state on that region.

The Jews lived there and had been living there for hundreds of years. 2000 years ago it was actually the Romans who dominated the area.

Palestinians had been living in the area for thousands of years.

One could use your words to state "That Romans dominated the area 2000 years ago is not adequate justification to impose the Jewish diaspora in that region."

Has someone claimed that Romans have legitimate claim to the land?

Yet, to the victor go the spoils.

That is another way of saying, Might makes right " so if Romans are victorious they are entitled to the land of Jews. Agreed?

Why complain that this shouldn't be the case because the spoils are going to 'The Jews'?

Does the religion of a group determine their right to lands of others?

[marco]

NUMEROUS Christians, however, make excuses for the wrath-filled, Middle-East, make-believe deity they claim is "God" with a capital G (without offering a scrap of evidence that it even exists).

E.G.

Is the God of the Old Testament a merciless monster? https://carm.org/god-of-old-testament-a-monster

I found this "justification" very funny. It is remarkable that people in all seriousness present utter nonsense in defence of a deity who orders the slaughter of infants, as well as every animal in the city. It's suggested the animals may have foolishly colluded in bestiality, and so merited being killed. The evil is that bad people were killing their children, and not giving God a chance to do it, so God stepped in and ordered more infant murders.

We are told people were "very, very, very bad" - whatever that might entail - and might have been a bad influence on the impressionable and silly Israelites, whose stupidity God tolerated. So ....slaughter!

I think attributing to Yahweh the command to murder anything in sight was a variation on the theme of "only following orders." And of course the Israelites, while ignoring suggestions to be good, keenly followed orders that involved killing.

[marco]

...
The question was: can we find evidence of a good Jehovah? ....

I dont think you can find, but I have found that all good things in my life are from God. Especially I think that He has given the wisdom that can be found from the Bible, makes Him good in my opinion.

God's influence on one's personal life is a defence that is hard to counter. If we become good from something we see as true, who are others to say this is a bad position? I think GOOD people will do good regardless of where the influence comes from. Thanks for your sincere reply.


Yes there are wise words in the Bible and passages of extreme beauty. That is conceded. The simple question is - can we find in the OT instances that illustrate Jehovah is GOOD?

[marco]

HE is good and merciful to HIS family

An instance of this would be? And what does HIS family mean, as if, like a cruel father, he has disinherited some of his children and shown favour to others?

Would you really smile meekly at your family's enemies and offer them another daughter to eat?

You are giving a justification for the use of savagery - not an example of goodness. The metaphor that God is guarding his own is blatantly false: he made (apparently) all mankind. His son told us that our enemy is our friend. Why does God not encourage dimplomacy? And is evil a monopoly of those who were not Israelites?

In all the times I have challenged you to tell us where you stand on the side of righteous justice have you ever acquiesced to the necessity of justice? Your sophisticated word play hides a multitude of errors...

My vulnerability to error in no may compares with God's biblical atrocities: it is expected that Marco will fail; it should not be expected that God will have infants murdered. If he has done so out of favouritism, this too is wrong. We struggle to find GOOD in the Yahweh being.

It is easy to compose pretext: people were awfully bad and abusing their children and animals. God's answer: kill the kids and the animals!